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Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? #1355967
01/23/10 01:08 AM
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Cashley Offline OP
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From where I live, I have only come across Yamaha, Kawai and Suzuki.

Does anyone know if there is such a digital piano capable of producing Steinway-like of tone ?

BTW, does anyone think that Digital Pianos have a good chance of 'knocking out' upright acoustic pianos ?

Last edited by Cashley; 01/23/10 01:18 AM.
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Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: Cashley] #1355983
01/23/10 01:47 AM
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signa Offline
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Roland v-piano or Yamaha CP1 perhaps?

Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: signa] #1355992
01/23/10 02:04 AM
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Digital pianos have already "knocked out" uprights...only acoustics selling well now, are the grands.

The V-Piano has kind of synthetic sounding mids (although the upgrades have supposedly lessened them), and overall it sounds nothing like my well maintained Steinway...it's very nice, mind you, but very overpriced for what you get which is basically a one trick pony...no alternate sounds easily available on the panel, and once you have your ten or so favorite acoustic sounds, it isn't much better than one of Roland's high end digitals, that offer far more variety (strings, organ, etc.) at a much more attractive price and use the same keyboard action.

Personally, I don't think any current digital hardware pianos have anything that sounds like the Steinway...you might have better luck with a VST.

Snazzy



Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: snazzyplayer] #1355998
01/23/10 02:07 AM
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What is a VST ?

What about brands such as Korg, Kurzweil ?

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Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: Cashley] #1356105
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Originally Posted by Cashley
What is a VST ?

What about brands such as Korg, Kurzweil ?


VST=virtual studio technology. Basically it means you plug your digital piano into a computer, use a software program running on the computer to generate piano (and other instrument) sounds, and send the audio output of the computer through a good set of speakers (or stereo). I started out with a DP and an assumption that I would want to buy an acoustic. I get so much enjoyment listening to all the different things I can do with VSTs that I no longer have any interest in buying an acoustic. If you're really set on a Steinway, you can buy a software program that sounds like a steinway.

Korg and Kurzweil are good DPs, but they do things you probably don't need given where you're at in the journey. I'd suggest starting with a basic DP by Casio or Yamaha with a decent keyboard, and spend the rest of the money on a software program and a good sound card for your computer.

Last edited by MarkL; 01/23/10 07:51 AM.

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Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: MarkL] #1356106
01/23/10 07:59 AM
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Actually I own 2 Clavinovas, at 2 different locations, of course.

I'm looking at expanding my knowledge of DPs.

Quote
Basically it means you plug your digital piano into a computer, use a software program running on the computer to generate piano (and other instrument) sounds, and send the audio output of the computer through a good set of speakers (or stereo).


Is it possible to send the audio output of the computer back to the original speakers in the DP ?

Last edited by Cashley; 01/23/10 09:44 AM.
Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: Cashley] #1356112
01/23/10 08:11 AM
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Dr Popper Offline
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A Roland RD700GX's Expressive Grand patch is based in a Steinway and does a reasonably good impersonation of one.


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: Dr Popper] #1356120
01/23/10 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper
A Roland RD700GX's Expressive Grand patch is based in a Steinway and does a reasonably good impersonation of one.


Really? My experience comparing Rolands, including the RD-700GX's Expressive Grand, to my well maintained Steinway, leaves me wondering what the heck Roland has based the sound on...it certainly sounds nothing like my piano.

The sound is more likely a composite of several pianos.

Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: Cashley] #1356170
01/23/10 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Cashley
From where I live, I have only come across Yamaha, Kawai and Suzuki.

Does anyone know if there is such a digital piano capable of producing Steinway-like of tone ?

BTW, does anyone think that Digital Pianos have a good chance of 'knocking out' upright acoustic pianos ?


The best that a digital Piano can ever hope for is to sound like a very high quality recording on an acoustic piano. How "real" that recording sounds depends on the quality of the stereo playback equipment. I think digital pianos have already overtaken acoustic pianos in terms of sales. But I think there will always be a market for acoustic pianos.

Can a digital sound "Stenway-like"? I posted this link in another thread. The below is a link to some demo MP3 files that attempt to sound like a Steinway D as heard form a few different distances. You can listen and tell us how close the digital is to the sound of a real steinway.

http://www.sampletekk.com/proddetail.php?prod=STCD-003-MULT24

Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: Cashley] #1356173
01/23/10 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Cashley
Actually I own 2 Clavinovas, at 2 different locations, of course.
...
Is it possible to send the audio output of the computer back to the original speakers in the DP ?



In your case "Yes" as I think Clavinovas have a "Line In" jack. You'd connect the audio output from a computer's audio interface to the DP's line in.

You can buy a little box that connects the audio and midi to the DPs and has a USB cable going back to the computer. Price range about $150

Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: snazzyplayer] #1356181
01/23/10 10:16 AM
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Quote
My experience comparing Rolands, including the RD-700GX's Expressive Grand, to my well maintained Steinway, leaves me wondering what the heck Roland has based the sound on


Roland's web site says the sound is a composite of "several classic pianos" and that that have "used the best parts of each."

This is the answer in one of their FAQs to the question "What piano was sampled?" But heck if I can find the link right now.

Last edited by ChrisA; 01/23/10 10:18 AM.
Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: ChrisA] #1356200
01/23/10 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisA



Roland's web site says the sound is a composite of "several classic pianos" and that that have "used the best parts of each."

This is the answer in one of their FAQs to the question "What piano was sampled?" But heck if I can find the link right now.


Thanks Chris...that why I said "The sound is more likely a composite of several pianos" in my post.

I can safely say it doesn't sound much like a Steinway, having the good fortune of having one at hand for a direct comparison.

Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: snazzyplayer] #1356233
01/23/10 11:32 AM
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You know, I think that's fine for a digital piano. Why does a digital piano have to sound like a real one? Why can't it be a composite? That's the luxury of being a digital piano... coming up with a sound that is pleasing. It's not a digital Yamaha, it's not a digital Steinway. It's a Roland. That's its sound.

Sprout

Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: snazzyplayer] #1356234
01/23/10 11:32 AM
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I just came across a software by East West that contains samples of Bechstein, Bosendorfer, Steinway and Yamaha. Is that as good as what Garritan offers ?

Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: Sprout] #1356236
01/23/10 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Sprout
You know, I think that's fine for a digital piano. Why does a digital piano have to sound like a real one? Why can't it be a composite? That's the luxury of being a digital piano... coming up with a sound that is pleasing. It's not a digital Yamaha, it's not a digital Steinway. It's a Roland. That's its sound.

Sprout


+1...well said, Sprout.

Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: Cashley] #1356544
01/23/10 06:43 PM
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I did not have opportunity to compare directly, but (based on a number of opinions from people I respect), I purchased the Gold version of the EWQL pianos last night (at $195 instead of $345). I had been considering the Garritan Steinway, but EWQL gives me four good pianos (including a Steinway), runs on my hardware, and I do have the EWQL free package of some sounds from their Orchestral that came out a bit before Christmas - I have been very well pleased with the quality of those sounds.

Ivory will be bringing out a new version in a few months; but I wanted to get this while the price was advantageous.


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Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: Sprout] #1356704
01/23/10 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Sprout
Why does a digital piano have to sound like a real one? It's a Roland. That's its sound.

Exactly so, but why do Rolands have to sound like they're drowning in the bathtub?

Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: Ludwig van Bilge] #1356809
01/24/10 01:21 AM
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"From where I live, I have only come across Yamaha, Kawai and Suzuki. Does anyone know if there is such a digital piano capable of producing Steinway-like of tone ?"


Cashley,

The proximity depends on many things. It depends as much on what you hear it through (near-field monitors, hi-fi speakers, premium headphones, junky onboard speakers) as it depends on the tonal output the sound engine produces. Another big factor is your own key attack. To achieve any kind of warmth, Yamahas require a light touch so that the initial percussive sound response to the keystrike does not obliterate tone-building. Rolands IMO are a bit easier to coax toward the warmth and delicacy of a Steinway, but the tone will definitely flatten out to a metallic monotone with too much attack velocity. Remember, closer doesn't mean close.


"Digital pianos have already "knocked out" uprights...only acoustics selling well now, are the grands."

That would be true to a certain extent in the US due to three factors: an obsession with grands, the availability of decent grands for the price of a better vertical, and a general decline in acoustic sales. But 'knocked out' is a bit strong. It makes it sound like this is the desired outcome of the person saying it.

In Europe and Asia vertical pianos are still a healthy part of the acoustic market. In places like Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore, and large European and Chinese cities with small flats, grand pianos in homes are relatively rare while acoustic verticals are plentiful.

Some say that the advances in digitals are the reason for the decline of acoustic vertical sales in the US. I don't think that's true, just a confluence of different trends, one upward and one downward.


"The best that a digital Piano can ever hope for is to sound like a very high quality recording on an acoustic piano. "

That's absurd. If digital R&D people had that for a mantra, they would get nowhere.


"I can safely say it [Roland Expressive Grand] doesn't sound much like a Steinway, having the good fortune of having one at hand for a direct comparison."

You talk a lot about your good fortune Snazzy. I guess in a way it's good that you appreciate it. Somehow though I remember you saying that your NS3 beat the pants off your Steinway grand (during your period of initial NS3 infatuation) grin

Anyway, for a myriad of obvious reasons, neither Roland Expressive Grand nor Roland Superior Grand are close to a Steinway acoustic grand in their tone and the projection of that tone. However, they are closer than either Kawai or Yamaha's best samples. Both Kawai and Yamaha are inevitably wed to their acoustic namesakes (unless Yamaha chooses to introduce a Bosie sample to a Yam digital). Roland has no allegiance to any acoustic brand, and it shows in their free-wheeling approach to sampling, modeling, and enhancement of core samples.


"Why does a digital piano have to sound like a real one?"

Substitute 'acoustic' for 'real' and I'm with you on that. Both are real pianos.


"why do Rolands have to sound like they're drowning in the bathtub?"

Possibly the way you play. With a name like Bilge, one has to wonder. laugh


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Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: turandot] #1356836
01/24/10 02:50 AM
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Thank you for your edifying post. smile

Is there a website that offers a systematic education on VST ?

It's something new to me, as well as people around me. I really hope to make a business out it.


Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: turandot] #1356854
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Originally Posted by turandot


But 'knocked out' is a bit strong. It makes it sound like this is the desired outcome of the person saying it.



Yes, it is a bit strong, but other than the waste of good wood, wire and felt, I see no positive use for upright pianos.

And actually, Rolands do not sound like they are drowning in a bathtub...t'is more like a swimming pool.

Their lack of allegiance to any brand has been more of a hindrance than a help....now they sound like nothing. wink

And yes, Mr. Dot...the N3 pretty well beats the pants, and any other wearing apparel I dare not mention, off pretty well most grand pianos, if only for the sheer pleasure of never hearing it go out of tune.

Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: snazzyplayer] #1356859
01/24/10 05:23 AM
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What is a N3 ? confused

Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: Cashley] #1356860
01/24/10 05:29 AM
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An N3, is a Yamaha Avant Grand digital piano.

Here t'is:

http://www.avant-grand.com/


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: snazzyplayer] #1356862
01/24/10 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
A Roland RD700GX's Expressive Grand patch is based in a Steinway and does a reasonably good impersonation of one.


Really? My experience comparing Rolands, including the RD-700GX's Expressive Grand, to my well maintained Steinway, leaves me wondering what the heck Roland has based the sound on...it certainly sounds nothing like my piano.

The sound is more likely a composite of several pianos.

Snazzy


Shows you how often I play a Steinway (not for years) but I do quite like the Expressive Grand in the RD700GX ... its certainly a more European sounding patch then any Yamaha one.


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: snazzyplayer] #1356864
01/24/10 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Yes, it is a bit strong, but other than the waste of good wood, wire and felt, I see no positive use for upright pianos.


I'd choose an upright over a grand for a lot of popular music, Blues, Ragtime, Rock 'n Roll lots of older Jazz. Grands just sound too sophisticated for many genres, like an opera singer covering a Rolling Stones song - shudder!


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Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: BazC] #1356868
01/24/10 06:09 AM
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How did Roland which is a Japanese product acquire a non-Japanese name ?

And where are Korg and Kurzweil made ?

Correct me if I'm wrong. It does appear that Japanese are the leaders in DP technology.

Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: Cashley] #1356872
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Kurzweil was originally American I believe but is now owned by Hyundai (Korean), Korg is Japanese and I presume Roland chose a western name for marketing reasons.

Here's what Wikipedia has to say about it;

"Origin of the Roland name

Roland was founded after Kakehashi cut ties with Ace Electronic Industries (a company he founded in 1960) and Hammond International. As with many Japanese startups of the period, the name Roland was selected for export purposes as Kakehashi was interested in a name that was easy to pronounce for his worldwide target markets. Legend has long circulated that he named his company after the French epic poem La Chanson de Roland. In actuality, the name Roland was found in a telephone directory. Kakehashi opted for it as he was satisfied with the simple two-syllable word and its soft consonants."


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Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: BazC] #1356873
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V-Piano supposedly models a Steinway and a Bosendorfer, but it doesn't sound like either of those instruments. The V-Piano sounds like, well a Roland piano. (My engineer says that the problem with Roland pianos is that they all sound like Roland pianos).

I don't believe an authentic Steinway sound exists on a DP. You would have to use a sample library.

Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: snazzyplayer] #1356874
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Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
A Roland RD700GX's Expressive Grand patch is based in a Steinway and does a reasonably good impersonation of one.


Really? My experience comparing Rolands, including the RD-700GX's Expressive Grand, to my well maintained Steinway, leaves me wondering what the heck Roland has based the sound on...it certainly sounds nothing like my piano.

The sound is more likely a composite of several pianos.

Snazzy


The Expressive Grand in the RD700GX is sampled from a Yamaha CFIII, I thought you would like to know that.

Last edited by Andree; 01/24/10 06:40 AM.
Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: snazzyplayer] #1356881
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Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
but other than the waste of good wood, wire and felt, I see no positive use for upright pianos.


You forgot to mention - creating work for piano tuners.

Re: Steinway-like Digital Pianos ? [Re: turandot] #1356885
01/24/10 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by turandot

"Why does a digital piano have to sound like a real one?"

Substitute 'acoustic' for 'real' and I'm with you on that. Both are real pianos.



Yeah, that's better.

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Crackling noise when recording digital piano
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