Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Am I getting a good price for this Bosendorfer?

A 20 year old used Boesendorfer should cost a lot less than a 9 year old new one!!

If you like the piano, buy it! It seems like the deal of the year to me. I would love to own that piano It will last you a life time.....

Don't let people talk you into a bigger piano, with this piano in your house you will be able to play it with the lid open and enjoy the full Bosendorfer experience. If the piano gets to big for the room, you need to keep the lid down and that would be a shame!

Good luck and do post the pictures when it arrives in your home

Kind regards from one jealous PW member

It's not a lie to say the retail price is 101K because dealers don't have separate selling or MSRP prices for pianos bought one year and the same make/model bought later or earlier(except in special cases like this one in terms of the selling price). Fine's latest MSRP for this model is about 90K, but this may not have included the latest price increase.

I don't know what discount is possible on Boesendorfers, but it seems like you have somewhere between 50-55% so I doubt many would say this is a bad deal.I don't think it's important if it's the absolute best deal possible. The main thing is, as has been said in many threads, "don't buy the deal, buy the piano".

Have you tried longer grands?

At the very least I would give Rich at Cunningham's in Philadelphia a call and ask him what he has available. He sells new and used Bosie as well as other major brands (Estonia, M&H, etc...). Rich calls me on occasion with a good and he will probably sell me my next piano.

Regards,
Steve Ries

I am puzzled by the post. You have done your diligence. You have found a piano you like. You entered into "hard negotiation" and earned a price that looks to be at or nearly at the wholesale price of the instrument. Why would you do that unless you were ready to buy? Tying up an instrument with a refundable deposit while you continue to shop is foolish for the dealer. It is bad business. One phone call to the rep. for Bosendorfer with the serial number and he can confirm if the piano is in fact new. That done, fish or cut bait. Great piano. Great price. Don't look for reassurances after you have worked a deal.

It sounds like a pretty darn good price if it is really new. If it has never been sold, then (as I understand it) Bösendorfer should treat it as new and you'll have your 10 year Bösendorfer warranty. On the other hand, as a practical matter, over the years that it has been in the showroom it might have been played enough so that it has some wear and tear (e.g. compacted hammer felt). Since you're serious about this piano, I'd recommend having an independent tech take a look and make sure that it doesn't have any appreciable wear.

Finally, I agree with others that if you love the tone and touch of this instrument and you feel good about the price. . . go for it! I'm probably biased, but I really, really like Bösendorfers. Every day I play mine, I discover new wonderful subtleties that make me want to play for hours.

AJB,
Do you have some examples?
thanks

Hi Claudia,

In my opinion Bosendorfers don't have to be big to be beautiful. I had a 200 which I preferred to the previous and subsequent 225.

I think Von Karajan had a 170, which seems a pretty good recommendation to me.

A Hamburg B is, or at least was, substantially different to a New York B. I have heard that Hamburg is now using American wood for their soundboards so the difference may not be so noticeable in future.

It really is a tough decision to choose between Bosendorfer and Steinway. Personally though I find the Bosendorfer tone more enchanting

Best wishes in your decision making.

John

FINAL OUTCOME

Dear fellow musicians TLuvva, Rich D., CD131, Barbara G, Schwammerl, Ark, Tucsonpianist91, Chris H., AJB, Paul H, Postenebraslux, David-G, Pianoloverus, GC1Patrick, Stevester, MartyFlinn, SHPIano, Tangledfingers and Rapide

First of all, I have to thank everyone of you that spent time reading my post and answering it.
I cannot tell you how helpful you have been in my final decision.

I also put this same post in the “Piano Tuner-Technician's Forum”, since I really thought that both branches would have something very useful to advice me. And they really did.
You can check the answers I received in the other forum here: http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/3/4730.html#000011

As I said I was going to do, following the advice from the Piano technicians, today I got not just an RPT and PTG, but this man is also an specialist in Bosendorfers, and has been trained in Austria, inside the Bosendorfers factory!!! Can you believe how lucky I have been, to find such a person, and that he was willing to come and check this piano on a Saturday evening? This is an experienced tech. for more than 40 years now!!! Add to that that this man has nothing to do with the dealer. Awesome.
His diagnosis about this piano: it has never been used or repaired. It is everywhere and everything original. No scratches. Nothing changed or restored. He said this piano must have been played a maximum of 10 hours during the whole 9 years. He said is perfect in every detail. No doubt it was sitting at the showroom the whole time. He suspects it has been tuned about 3 to 4 times a year, so it is in the perfect point that it does not need the initial period to “break – in”. It is in the point of the full potential.
I asked him how much he would appraise it, and since he does not sell pianos (another good thing, he didn’t try to sell me one of his inventory) but has done in the past (more good things, so he knows how to evaluate these facts) this piano should be appraised at the same level of a model 2009, due to the perfect and original condition in what it is.
I paid him the $ 150 he asked (more than any other technicians I contacted), but due to his expertise, particularly with Bosendorfer, it was worth every penny.
And of course, I asked so many questions to this technician. He was a Maestro. He showed (and taught me) every little detail about how he inspected this piano, to the point that I almost feel myself able to diagnose the condition of a piano!!! ;-) He is literally a Maestro, and better yet, a Bosendorfer Maestro.
So thanks to people and specially technicians of the forum who insisted on this task to be performed. This is something I would not have think without you. Too bad for the tech. who answered first, saying that this was not a question for the technicians forum. If I could have been able to delete my post (what I tried unsuccessfully) I would have never gone to get this done. Now I have peace of mind.
So just a little suggestion for the technicians: don’t diminish a question from someone who asks a type of help that seems not to be directly related to their work... You may be wrong...

I had in mind those who told me “get a bigger piano (for that same money)”.
Well… honestly the SIZE is never a matter for me (in every sense you want to imagine, musically or not). What is really important for me is the quality (again, in every sense).
I understand that in most pianos the size means a better harmony, a more powerful sound.
But in the case of a Bosendorfer, these instruments are made with such a high quality, that they can produce harmonics that other brands of the same size cannot. And I experienced these for myself, trying many different brands and sizes.
Regards to the power, the room where this piano is going to be nested does not have the size to receive too much power sound. It has double ceiling height, but relatively small surface dimensions. Having a bigger piano there would force me to play it with the lid closed, and then I will really lose harmonics, and clarity.
When I was a young student (this is many, many years ago) I had an August Forster upright, and even for my daily practice I opened the upper lid, as well as I took apart the whole front of the piano. I wanted to listen the direct sound. So why should I want to play now on a grand with closed lid, being so easy to just open the lid!?
So regards to who they told me that for the same money I can get a bigger grand, I really believe it can be true, but it will not meet my desires.
In fact, this same dealer has another Bosenforder in the clearance section: a 214 (7’) CS (Conservatory serie) which price is $ 5,000 less than the 170 (5’8”) I have been talking in this post.
Of course I tried the 214 CS, and I didn’t like it. I would preferred to pay more for the 170 (it is NOT a CS serie) than for this huge 214 CS. I really think that there is a difference between the CS series and the other (better) ones, as it is not the same sound quality with the C series and the S series of Yamahas.

After trying this Bosendorfer 170 for the first time yesterday, I went directly to a Yamaha dealer, just to try them. I always had a crush on Yamahas (that is before I discovered the Hamburg Steinways). I had a particular obsession with the C7. And yes... I played one yesterday... What a shock... It meant nothing for me. So I have been thinking yesterday night... is it because after playing this Bosendorfer, the Yamahas means nothing for me any more (except the CFIII)? Does it mean that this Bosendorfer is something really special?
So discarded the Yamahas, I have been thinking of testing the Shigeru Kawais... but as I have been advised here (in another post)... Shigerus will still be Kawais, and although it is not a bad brand... they are not at the same level of Steinways, Bosendorfers, Grotrians, Bluthners... and the list goes on...

Now regards to my obsession with the Hamburg Steinways, the only relatively new one I found in the USA is this one I mentioned in San Francisco... Should I fly there, from Pennsylvania, just to try it? What if it does not sound and feels the way I want, and in the meantime I lose the Bosie? I have asked this dealer that has this Hamburg, 5 days ago, pictures of it as well as the serial number, and I gave him my phone numbers for him to call me to talk about this piano... He said literally through his e-mail: “Sure, I’ll have somebody take a few pictures for you. Please just relax patiently until that joyful day, however”. He never sent me pictures, called me or provide me the serial # of the piano. Should I have made the trip without seeing pictures, verifying that the arm is rounded, so it is really a Hamburg (and not a New York) Steinway? This is not a joke. It is a trip that takes me 3 to 4 planes. Besides, his lack of information (or interest to sell it really?) didn’t smell good to me. This piano is being used for rentals... Who knows if he is serious about selling it?
Besides, the technician who evaluated the Bosendorfer told me that Bosies are made almost equally as the Hamburg Steinways, are the closest to them, and used to have this rich European sound (that is what I have been looking for, not easy to find in the USA).

To answer to those who suggested me to import a Hamburg Steinway from Europe: of course I tried it. I was in touch with a dealer in Spain, and the price to put a M model in the USA was 52,000 euros plus importation taxes and shipping. And the New York Steinway dealer asked me US $ 78,500. And of course, I am not going to buy blindly a piano… I have to travel MYSELF to Europe to choose it… Each piano is different (unless you buy one made in serie). So I have analyzed this idea of bringing one from Europe… but it is sooo expensive… compared with this new Bosendorfer 170, new, for $ 42,000

As Marty Flinn recommended me: I got the serial number and I called another Bosendorfer dealer, and confirmed it is built in 2000.

Regards to those who advised me here to leave a refundable deposit for the Bosendorfer and continue shopping around... no way. It keeps me psychologically tied. And I love freedom more than any other thing in life... It is a personal belief. As some of you said here:
“Never never NEVER leave deposits. Very bad negotiating tactic.”

About to leave it for 2 weeks and then write the dealer an offer for $ 40,000: that is not ethical from my part, the way I negotiated the deal. I know at where we started, I know how hard I was to get to the point I arrived (the $ 42,000 everything included), I got information that he is not financially in a hurry... You provided me information in these forums (and after that I got mine through some phone calls and Internet) about what is the real price in the market for these pianos, and also the wholesale price. I knew I didn’t have room to get it for less.
So I thought: I have a deal. Now I have to buy the piano.
And in this aspect, what Pianoloverus said “don't buy the deal, buy the piano” really helped me with directions in my process of thinking and analyzing.

I asked myself: Is this a piano I am going to regret not to buy, if I lose it for continuing shopping around “just in case”? And my answer was: yes, this is something I will regret.

So bearing in mind, as David-G said here: “make sure that you really love the piano. It's more important than loving the price” is that I went there this Saturday evening with the technician. Then I tried the piano (and other pianos again)… and I really liked the piano. The more I played, the more I liked it.

Then, you see… following Marty Flynn “You have done your diligence” (and believe me, I did everything, as I have explained here) and then “That done, fish or cut bait”

So… guess what… I did it… I fished it…
A few hours ago I bought the Bosendorfer 170 PE new from year 2000 at $ 42,000 what includes taxes, artist bench, shipping, grand piano lamp, first tuning and 10 years warranty.

For what I heard in these forums, it sound too good to be true. But it is true!!

Now, if someone wants to hear something also hard to believe, this dealer has 2 other new Bosendorfers in the clearance process:
- 214 CS (7”) ebony satin, from year 2001, never sold (althought it has been used for a few concerts in the showroom)
- 170 (5’8”) model Yacht (what a beauty!), 2001 or so (a higher # serie than mine)

If anyone wants to contact the seller, send me a private message. I will be happy to share my good luck of finding these jewels, as well as referring to the seller of the store who was very honest with me.

Thank you everyone again, you have been wonderful. These forums at pianoworld are terrific!
Have a great Sunday and week, and from my part… I will wait for my Bosie to arrive, hopefully on Tuesday!

Warm hugs!

Claudia,

Congratulations with your Bösendorfer 170, a beautiful instrument indeed; enjoy it for many years to come.

And thank you for your most genuine testimonial.

I also hope you will continue posting here as from your buying experience there will be lots you could share with others in future.

schwammerl

Claudia,

Congratulations on your new piano.

I really think that there is a difference between the CS series and the other (better) ones, as it is not the same sound quality with the C series and the S series of Yamahas.

Well, you think wrong. This has been discussed many times here before, but here we go again:

* The rim construction, plate, action, soundboard, hammers and strings are all identical on the B and the CS series pianos. They are both made in the same factory by the same workforce using the same materials. Any comparison with the differences between C and S series Yamaha pianos is quite astoundingly wide of the mark.

* The CS series has a satin exterior finish and the plate is not as highly polished. Both activities involve a lot of (expensive) labour, and though cosmetically superior, neither make any contribution to how the pianos sounds or plays.

* Not all the strings are individually hitched on the CS series, some being loop-strung, which again saves some labour time. Similar to Steinway, Fazioli and other quality manufacturers (who use loop stringing as standard) Bösendorfer don't believe that single-stringing brings any advantages other than cosmetic.

* The CS models receive somewhat less preparation at the factory, but still more than many other piano-makers. Of course many of these elements are lost within a short time of delivery (if the piano is indeed used for music rather than as a fancy furniture ornament), so any experienced technician[1] should be able to maintain any B or CS model (as they are essentially the same piano wearing slight different clothes) in identical tip-top playing condition as the years go by.

So, if you cannot perceive the superior tonal quality/balance, control (appreciably longer key length) and sonority of a 7' Bösendorfer compared to the smaller instrument, then it's probably best that you stick to something you know and like. From a cosmetic and furniture point of view a B170 is obviously a superior piano to a 214CS; however from a musical standpoint I (and I'd imagine most other experienced pianists) would maintain the opposite to be true.

You and others might consider this response an example of an owner merely defending their choice of instrument, and of course there is an element of that. However the misplaced analogy above merely serves to spread misinformation on a forum which is consulted by people looking for reliable and correct information, and it is also in that spirit that I felt the need to set the record straight.

Yours rather irritatedly,

Michael B.
[1] The chap who maintains my piano is Vice-President of the Swiss PTG, and regularly visits the factory in Vienna, as he is also Bösendorfer's official technical representative for French-speaking Switzerland and works closely with their main dealer in Montreux.

Congradulations Claudia. Thanks for sharing this quest and experience with us. As you can tell I have a Bosendorfer also and they are trully wonderful pianos. They have many craftmanship items in design and building which no other piano has. When ours was being repaired I learned about these things.

Don't hesitate to thank Gerhard Feldmann by name here on PW. He is rebuilding his service and repair business since he closed his New York store. He is a man who is loved by many and my husband has talked to him on the phone several times. We think the world of him also.

I'm sure that you will love and enjoy your piano for years. Congradulations.

"So… guess what… I did it… I fished it…"

I hope that you will be happy playing in the waters! It's a beautiful piano.

Tues, huh? That's wonderful...

We do love delivery pics, you know!

BTW, if taxes were included, it sounds like the piano is actually around $40,000. Delivery, tunings, benches etc is normal.

It might be nice to share the tech and seller's business name here.

edit - oh I see that BG wrote at the same time as I!

A pretty strong element, I'd say.

Two points

Although it is a majority opinion here that longer is generally better for reasons you have cited, there is a minority position that individual manufacturers' best achievements are not necessarily their longest ones. For example, there are players who find too much resonant bass annoying, too much sustain a nuisance, and are interested in a type of musical expression that is enhanced by neither. Count me in.

You don't have to make your point by inferring that the member cannot perceive the superiority of your instrument and must be interested in furniture over musical qualities. Beyond the member's statement that she prefers a a smaller grand open to the possibility of a larger grand closed, she is entitled the courtesy of knowing better than anyone what works best for her musically. You can defend the quality of workmanship and materials in your piano without putting down the member's ability to play or discern.

[1] "an owner merely defending their choice of instrument" would be better expressed as "an owner merely defending his choice of instrument".

Congratulations! It's so fun to get so excited about an instrument. It's like a crush.

Boy, I'd love to consider that 214CS at that price myself. Don't think Mrs. A would go for it at this exact time and place though. Maybe it will sit another few years or months at least.

And hey, Mr B. try to give Claudia a little slack. You're right, but she's obviously quite excited and delightfully so. When you have a crush like that, your excitement might cause you to inadvertently say something about someone else's girlfriend. Oops! I'm sure she didn't mean to. And thanks for the reassuring details about my future piano's quality.

If you can get a 7ft 214 CS for $40,000 or less - that is a significantly better piano for a musician than a 170. Think carefully. The 214 is in small concert grand territory: a pro instrument. It can always be voiced down a bit for your room. It will also give you much more dynamic control.

Michael is dead right that the cosmetic and minor technical differences between the models have no impact on musical functionality. The CS is in no way an inferior instrument - just a little less pretty as a piece of furniture.

Try them again!

Anyway, good luck with your purchase.

Adrian

William:
You don't have to make your point by inferring that the member cannot perceive the superiority of your instrument (my emphasis)

I don't own the sole 214CS in the world, therefore this is not actually a personal issue. I know what I like, but of course people tastes vary, and not everyone likes the same thing, so 'vive la différence' and all that malarkey. However I find it a shame that uninformed and incorrect opinions be presented as fact by someone seeking to justify his/her buying decisions.

Claudia said "what is really important for me is the quality" and this is a fine and laudable attitude to have. However, after not liking the 214CS, she then sought to justify her decision to buy the B170 as being the result of a 'quality' issue; the 214CS was not one of "the (other) better ones," etc. As this is provable to be factually wrong (in terms of a musical instrument, though perhaps not aesthetically), I merely pointed out that as quality issue was probably not concerning the piano, but elsewhere. I am presuming that the dealer is serious about selling these pianos now (though obviously was not that serious during the past 9 years!), and they were all in tune and reasonably-well prepared.

A B170 is a exquisitely-made small grand piano, and I hope that the Claudia is very happy with it. However, it was just a shame that she felt the need to invent things out of thin air in terms of 'quality' essentially to slam what she didn't like (or most likely appreciate/perceive/understand.) If the Claudia had written "I came to the conclusion that a 7ft piano is too big (and/or loud) for my piano room, and/or I don't like satin finishes, and all in all I prefer the sound, finish and look of the B170, so I bought it," I would have had no further comments, apart from sincere congratulations.

"an owner merely defending his choice of instrument"

Aaaaargh!


Michael B.

Michael we might like DeLaFée chocolates, but many actually enjoy eating Hershey's. Sometimes one may be lost to the taste of the other.
Curry- Chocolate Nazi.

Malarkey, huh?

Michael B,

I understand your answer, and you are right that it takes two to tango (or tangle). I have noticed that often when members reveal their final choice here, they inadvertently kick aside the other pianos that lined the race course to the finish line. I guess it's all part of the rationale that leads to and affirms a decision.

Let's just assume that there was something really special about that 170. I've learned (from reading here ) that at the highest elevation of the high-end, individual samples vary greatly. So maybe among the individual samples of the breeds that were available, the 170 was a true thoroughbred.

I didn't congratulate Claudia either, so let me add my congratulations to yours.

Claudia,

Congratulations on a terrific piano! I enjoyed reading your thread.

What are the different ingredients between the CS and C that would lead to this statement?