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Well, the length is spot on. First impressions are important and these pianos will score high on aesthetic appeal.

The shallow key dip, you do realize that those of us who occasionally resort to a slam-bam-thank-you-ma'am Jerry Lee Lewis imitation will feel a little awkward when first encountering this action;-)

Gotta love the goal, tho. So often we read about performance grands which have to be played with their lids down. I'm new to piano and can still recall the first time I played a grand, c.6 years ago. It was a parlour from Steinway Hall - not a Steiny. Played a song I'd written. Lid was down. Wasn't impressed. The owner then raised the lid. Immediately the tone bloomed and also immediately I understood the appeal of a grand. IMO if you can market a 6'7" piano which can be played at home on full stick, you'll have a winner - and one which we can recommend on PW.

The dip won’t be all that much shallower. Bearing in mind that when I started in this business the “standard” key dip was 9.5 mm (≈ 0.375”) for most pianos. Steinway was 10 mm (≈ 0.39”). And then hammers started getting heavier…and heavier…and heavier…. Pretty soon the limits of what the human fingers and wrists can handle were exceeded and action ratios had to change.

As may be, there will be power aplenty for those who need it. Funny thing is, I’ve noticed over the years that as I provide a better, warmer and richer pianissimo the need for that crashing, strident forte tends to disappear. Folks who used to bang and crash don’t do so all that much. The only conclusion I can draw is that folks are looking for range, not just power. If the piano provides an expanded range the whole level of play comes down.



I will be very disappointed to see these pianos played with their lids down. I’ll be even more disappointed if it is necessary. Maybe I’ll have to put some sort of interlock device in there to prevent that from ever happening.

I’ll also be disappointed if any type of hydraulic lid lift device is necessary to help one lift the lid.

ddf

Hear! Hear!

I agree that the key to dynamic range is pianissimo.

here is my Erard at home..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTSdZ70m2gI

a friend is improvising..

the sound is not so good because it's the audio from my JVC emerio videocamera.

consider that the piano you see is 2.12 meters, but because of the low-tension scale and parallel stringing it occupies less space than one would think..

and the weight of the piano is about 300 Kg total, I can lift one side by hand

Erard was the heaviest and loudest french piano..

my 1844 pleyel is so light that I've put it on it's side by myself (with the legs off) from the floor. it is a 2m piano and yet it is quite small-looking.

consider that even on fortepianos, more layers of leather were added to the bass.

A 200 cm+ grand which has to be played with the lid fully open and which produces the ideal dynamic range appropriate for the home environment ........that leaves me with a practical question:

How is Young Chang going to market these Albert Weber grands?

Despite the fact that apparently quite a few piano lovers appaer to be interested in this concept how are these prospect buyers going to testdrive/audition these grands in the usual big factory like dealer showroom environments?

Testdriven in the above conditions I could imagine one would not find the sound and dynamic range to be splendid.

Will Young Chang need to instruct dealers to provide for the appropriate home environment like acoustic conditions in there showrooms? Or will one have to trial these grands straight in one own's home environment (which is not very practical, if at all feasable)?

I coulod see a tough job for both YC and the dealers.

schwammerl.

I wasn't talking about the Albert Weber or YC grands. I was talking about my own instrument. And I won't have dealers to worry about....

ddf

So Del,

The Webers you were talking about are even not near your personal ideal?

If that is the case consumers will not have to worry in a foreseeable future about that practical concern,...... unfortunately?

schwammerl.

I think that once people get accustomed to the low-tension sound they will want to buy the pianos, even if they are not as loud.

the decay of a low-tension piano is more interesting to the ear. Hammers can be lighter, therefore making the action quicker and more sensitive. The soundboard can be made thinner and speaks quicker.

the difficulty with lower tensions is that the soundboard has to work ideally... you need to know what you are doing.

Thanks for the positive response. By the way, the modern key dip was not changed at all. The 'feel' of playing changes though, because of the super-light hammers.

What you say about the lid up is entirely true. You want to hear the details when the hammers strike the strings. That's the nicest thing about a grand piano. The Yamaha A-149cm model has this disadvantage: The music stand is fixed in the front of the piano. On other grands, I used to shift the music stand far back into the piano, so that my ears got the sound from the treble hammers directly from under the music stand. The shifting music stand is one of the great developments which make a lot of sense to me.
However, the big volume is always a problem on modern grands. After playing for half an hour I usually have enough and my ears are ringing. I would love to have a, say, maximally 180 cm grand piano (with a lower volume, the piano does not have to be so very long to sound nice, and think of the people who live in apartments with narrow staircases), very low-tension strings, tiny hammers and a somewhat historical sound ideal, but still a modern piano. The price should not exceed $20 000, but this seems to be an absolute dream. People like Del are an inspiration. I am convinced, there really IS a market for such a grand piano. Design one model of a grand piano, that can be manufactured with a consistent quality, at a relatively low price, even in the US or in Europe, a grand piano that is supported by pianists, piano teachers and music-lovers alike, say some kind of soft-spoken Yamaha/Steinway, about 180cm, and at a price of say $20 000, then you will have a success story.

What was said about the abilty to have a large piano range as opposed to fortissimo is very true. In my opinion, a piano should rather have a voice like a human being. A piano should have an identity, like a person, rather than an orchestra or a hellish machine. We want to be touched by a piano, not shocked. That's why a piano should 'speak' and not 'shout'.

Now here is my problem with the piano I have been working on: After a few days of playing and about one and a half hours per session, I come to the following conclusion: The action is not ideal for this type of hammer. The key is on a rather long way down for such a light hammer. Maybe this could be better regulated by a piano technician. However, the sound in the middle range of the treble is always quite harsh and not convincing. I'm afraid of having this section restrung. Everyhing is mere guesswork. The bass and the higher treble is no real problem. It is difficult to differentiate between piano and forte. My fingers get easily tired when playing, though the weight is far less than standard. The overall volume of the treble is still too big and one slips too easily into a harsh forte. I would prefer a volume more similar to a fortepiano.
I would not say that this experiment is a failure. It indicates the direction in which I would like to go and the features my ideal piano should have. I pause here and have a think what next to do.

you've just touched on one of the major differences between musical aesthetics of the 1800's as opposed to post-20th century aesthetic.

music interpreted as speech as opposed to shouting..

initially the big divide was between the american-made shouters (including Steinway which was considered an american design I believe) and the european made talkers.

the shouters won the match... but who wants to have someone shouting in their private home all the time I wonder..

(this applies to playing style of old as well)

Fortunately, Del does know.

His design for the Charles Walter 190 moved in the lower tension direction and his design for their 175 added the thinner soundboard element.

Even more impressive, IMO, is his persuading Young Chang CEO B. J. Park to move in the lower tension direction. This represents a sea change at YC and gives that company the potential for marketing a distinctive tonal palette.

Change entails risk. YC would be wise to focus on dealer quality and education rather than dealer quantity, especially for their Albert Weber brand - that being the one whose tensions Del reduced the most.

I’m not quite sure where you found that conclusion in what I wrote, but….

Just as there are many piano buyers there are also many “ideals.” The piano I am building represents my own ideal without regard to its marketability or its broad appeal to a wide variety of buyers. Just as the designers of something like the Ferrari don’t have to worry overly much about how practical their ideal automobile might be as the only car in the garage of a family with three kids and the weekend shopping to contend with.

In designing—or in this case, redesigning—a product line for a piano maker with an already established market niche I think it would be unwise to completely ignore that existing market. In my opinion it is probably better to nudge the market along in the direction you want it to go rather than hit it with a sledgehammer.

In my work with Young Chang I have attempted to give the company an updated product line that is smoother, better balanced and improved in most every way. More specifically I have separated the tone performance of the Young Chang and the Weber brands so that each will appeal to folks with somewhat different musical tastes. One of those brands—the Weber—should appeal to a market segment that has, in my opinion, been some underserved. They will have a warmer, more dynamic sound than is commonly found in the inexpensive grands of today. I’m hopeful that their sales history will demonstrate that this is a musically and commercially viable direction in which to go.

With my own piano I could care less about appealing to a mass market. I can afford to go in directions—and take both design and materials chances—that would almost certainly not be acceptable in a mass-market piano. The hard reality is that folks shopping for inexpensive pianos have to go through dealers and dealers are brutal on anything that hints of even evolutionary design let alone the occasional revolutionary idea or concept. Folks looking for the unusual very limited production piano are more willing to take a chance. And they do not have to go through that competitive dealer who will be doing his/her best to trash the design, construction, materials, look, feel, sound, name, reputation and even the smell of any remotely competitive piano. In other words, I can do whatever I personally want to do with my own pianos. If someone else likes what I’ve done enough to buy one, well, that’s great. If not, well, there are always the more common traditional pianos around.

ddf

With all respect, this is not completely true - at least not anymore.

During NAAM, I met several other dealers who are are very much planning to build a niche of excellence for themselves.

This will perhaps involve putting a "dream team" of those pianos together that clearly cut through the middle.

Mediocricity is increasingly for those who wish to continue dwelling in it.

By picking and choosing the very best models from several makers all at once, and at same time refusing to stock those 'cheapy' type models traditionally made by them as well, a new generation of pianos is upon us.

This reinforces the claim I have made for long time namely that *brand name* by itslef will be perhaps a lesser concern in future with the true excellence of built and musical performance of each individual piano becoming more important.

Perhaps the piano market is finally following society as a whole - becoming a bit more "multi-cultural" in nature....

Norbert

IMO the most important aspect of selling the Albert Webers will be dealer selection and education. Encouraging dealers to have a dedicated auditioning area would be particularly helpful. Let's face it, even a lower tensioned modern piano will have all the power ever needed for playing at home. Give people an opportunity to experience the potential of a warmer piano with a broad dynamic range, and the Albert Webers should sell well.



Because people who want to alert others to the opportunity for experiencing a unique tonal palette will not be able to suggest visiting their local dealers, high quality recordings on your site would, IMO, be a very good idea. (The one you made of that Knabe was good.) Are there any schools up your way which teach recording? If there are, the students will be eager for a professional credit and have access to equipment.

Please consider including popular music among the selections. I haven't forgotten your preference for the Classical repertoire, but that repertoire is neither played nor preferred by all. A fundamental principle of instruction is to begin by providing opportunities for students to immediately engage with the subject. You're a teacher.

Well, the $20,000 part is certainly a dream. Getting the price down to that level pretty much dictates manufacture in China or Indonesia or some such location. It also dictates a reasonably high rate of production. It would be some trick to convince an volume manufacturer to tool up to build what they would see as a speculative and esoteric (i.e., outside of the norm that they are used to) in any kind of volume.

It would be an untested market and piano makers have not shown themselves to be exactly daring when it comes to testing new markets.



Generally when I discuss this subject with pianists who already possess what I consider to be excessively hard-sounding pianos is that their pianos do have good range. They can play loud and soft. The difference, as I see it, is that all pianos can be played loud and less loud. That is, they can be played at reduced volume levels when the keys are not struck as hard. But there is a difference between “less loud” and “soft.” It is the volume and timbral change between loud and soft that I am after.



If you can find a technician who is familiar with modifying action ratios you can probably have this modified to suit. This is a very predictable result of the changes you’ve made to your action. It will take a bit of measuring and calculating but it shouldn’t be too difficult to relocate the key capstan and the wippen capstan block to come up with an overall action ratio that will give you a reduced key travel and a better action feel.

Revising the stringing scale would take a certain amount of preliminary trial and error work to come up with a scheme that would work with the original soundboard. It would be some easier coming up with a complete scale and soundboard combination if the soundboard could be thinned out and re-ribbed to cut down on the weight and stiffness some. But even with the original board it should be possible to tone it down some.

Don’t give up. What you are doing is, at the least, interesting. And in the end you should end up with an instrument you actually enjoy playing.

ddf

I'd like to think you're right, but experience tells me otherwise.

Competitive dealers still trash Kawai’s “plastic” actions, not for performance reasons but because they use “plastic.” And we all know plastic is bad.

Competitive dealers will continue to trash the “features” found in some competitive pianos simply because they are different from those in the pianos he/she sells.

Dealers still trash the idea of laminated soundboards even though the piano containing it (located at a competitor’s store, of course) might well sound better than the piano on their own floor.

Sadly, not all piano buyers can play the piano well enough to make an informed decision on the piano voice they will come to prefer over time. And it is this inability that the dealer I describe is still quite willing to exploit.

I’d love to see the general marketplace evolve beyond this. But I doubt it will do so any time soon. I agree that there will be a few enlightened dealers selling in the way you describe—there always have been—but I don’t see the mainstream dealerships becoming that enlightened any time soon. At least not until market pressures force them to do so. And until that happens piano manufacturers will rightly (in terms of their business survival) continue to be reluctant to introduce new ideas, materials and technologies. Even though that reluctance may well lead to collapse for many.

ddf

Thank you, Del, for giving me courage. Today, at lunch time, a local piano technician came at short-notice to do one and a half hours of basic regulation on my piano. First he levelled out the hammer line, then he changed the release point. The release of the hammers was to early, it happened at about 1 cm from the strings instead of 2 mm. In a Yamaha grand piano, the let-off buttons are screwed on a wooden batten, one batten per section. This batten can be unscrewed and raised, if a new type of hammer is installed in the piano. After that, the seperate release-buttons can be fine-tuned to set the release point correctly at 2 mm distance from the strings. In the bass, the distance can be slightly more.

This intervention basically solved my problem. Playing is now absolutely satisfying. The new hamers just need getting used to a little, but it is a huge difference from the rough ride I got at first. I feel that this piano technician (Christof Bucherer) will be my most important reference in the future, because he is fast, straightforward, uncomplicated and efficient.

Answer to one of the replies: I did not like the square pianos I came across. Neither the sound nor the general feel. I am not really going for ramshackle antiques. I suppose I am too much of a spoilt child of the 21st century ;-)

Happiness is a good tech.