Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Just for those totally devoted to Chopin

"I’ve been wanting to get around to discussing Dr. Jeff’s old article on the Marche Funèbre/not Funèbre, the one from the 1990s that he gave a link for a while back."

Would you mind to give the link (or book's name) again? I can't exactly bring myself to page back far enough to find it.

Thanks

Jeff's article "Chopin's March, Chopin's Death":
http://www.jstor.org/pss/746912

Oops, it's from 2001, not the 1990s.

Elene

Update:

Sigh.. I'm such a slow learner. I started to learn the C#mol Nocturne (posth.) two months ago. I feel like I have not progressed fast enough. At the same time I know i'm much better than I was a month ago. I've been playing the Nocturne like 30mins every day. Managing all the trioles, specially in the longer runs is hard to combine with the left hand arpeggios.

I think I'll need a few months more in order to play it more decently. Well I guess I can be proud of myself. After all, 14 months ago I did not even know how to play the C-scale.

Dear Elene,

There are no surviving autograph manuscripts of 72/2, so we can't know for certain about Chopin's choice of title. But the work appears in a list of incipits of "unpublished works" Ludwika compiled shortly after his death, and she labels it "funeral march" (in French) there, so the presumption is she got this title from whatever autograph of her brother's she was copying from.

You may be looking at an old edition of La Gazza Ladra? In the new critical edition (which mirrors Rossini's sources), the march and the preghiera are all part of a single number - indeed, the march comes back after the prayer.

Lots of writers connect Beethoven's march in op. 26 with Chopin's in op. 35, so I'm not surprised that you had that possible connection lurking in your thoughts.

Thanks for your close reading, and comments.

Jeff Kallberg

Jeff, I haven't had any opportunity to see a score for La Gazza Ladra, nor to see the entire opera itself. I didn't do any rigorous research, I'm afraid, just hunted around the Web and found it as albums on Amazon. They had the march and the preghiera as separate tracks, and didn't go back to the march after the preghiera as far as I know. So that was my impression of the matter.

At any rate, we know that both that work and the Beethoven were floating around in Chopin's head someplace.

Curious223, you are doing extremely well for a person who only started playing 14 months ago, and don't forget it! You don't even want to know how long it takes me to learn piano music!

Elene

OK......that means essentially making the half notes with accents into "dotted half notes." That was one of the first things I ever tried, and I did it again after your post. It would seem to make theoretical sense as a possibility. But, musically it seems like a non-starter, or at least I can't come close to making it sound musically plausible. What it seems to do is repeatedly bring the music to an odd halt.

Again, no need to say any more about this......you've been very generous already with your replies on this little puzzle. All I can say is that I myself have never been able to come close to anything that makes musical sense of the "duple" story, nor heard a performance along such a line. If anyone can find (or perform) such a version, I would be extremely interested.

Dear Curious, welcome back to the Devoted to Chopin thread. You can be very proud of yourself for attempting this piece at such an early stage of learning to play the piano. There is no doubt that being inspired by a particular work really does help with progress, a bit like a carrot on a stick! But remember that two months is really a very short time when learning a new piece. The fact that you know you have made progress is the key thing. Keep trying, and don't feel discouraged if you seem to stop improving for a while as that happens to everyone. Then in the end, you will play this Nocturne beautifully and record it for us all to listen to, yes?

Curious,

That Nocturne is by all means not an easy one! Don't kid yourself. This is a problem with many of Chopin's works. They look easy on the surface, but then there's those gotcha points all over them. You think you've got the notes together only to find that you've messed up the time. Not because you can't count, it's because you're trying to play the gazillion note runs in an exactly measured time, and trying to divide 48 x 5 in a run that isn't even a real scale.

Then there's the ole interpretation bit. This will, and I repeat ***WILL*** take the longest amount of time to get to some level of security so everything fits together.

The Nocturnes are like morsels of chocolate. Each one is a meal in itself, and once you understand them, they become quite a joy to play. So don't be discouraged. Take your time and enjoy the piece as you work on it. These things will take time and it will come to you eventually.

John

"Gotcha points"! So THAT'S what you call them!

Elene

Hi Curious:

I add my congrats to MaryRose on being able to play (or attempt to) this beautiful nocturne. It has been driving me crazy for many months. I don't find it that difficult to play (after all these many months, my muscle memory has almost taken over). However, that big run is still a problem for me even after trying all the tips and advice given me here on this thread. I would also like to commit it to memory, so at least I can sit down at any piano and play one Chopin piece without the music in front of me. There must be something in those broken chords in the LH that just throws me and my ever-fading memory. But I am still going at it, in chucks, as was suggested by a piano teacher on the forum.

It's strange that I have no problem playing any of Chopin's music (at my level) if that left hand is closed chords (or close to). Example: #55.1.

I think it has to do with how my brain processes information.

At any rate, please don't give up, as I know you won't.

Kathleen

Sure do, and there are so many of them. I was reading through his oh, so luscious Polonaise-Fantasy the other day. I worked, or I should say started on it about 6 years ago, but gave up on it due to many reasons, including not being with a teacher, frustration with it, and lack of time. This piece isn't too bad, or so it seems in the beginning, which is quite doeable with lots of work. Well, the last four pages are quite difficult with his third trills, big chords descending, and then the accelerando section to the end. Oh boy! I said to myself, after I got deeper into it. I played through it then put it away for another someday.

This again is another one of his pieces of chocolate that are so hard to stay away from.

John

I like the analogy....

Dark chocolate is good for you!

Elene

Definitely.

Sadly this semester I have to stay away from Chopin and work on Bach, Mendelssohn, and Rachmanninoff. This is kind of like going to the supermarket and picking out ice cream, french fries, and oranges. It's a weird combination that doesn't really go together well.

John

Look luck, John. I agree that those composers are very different. But remember that Chopin loved Bach. So I know you greatly benefit from learning his music. I, myself, find him so very difficult to play. All those voices going in all different directions!!

I have had a steady diet of Chopin for many years, with just a minor diversion into a great jazz-type arrangement of many of the old-time favorites. Very easy but sounding very professional.

I have decided to enroll in a Beginning Level Piano class at the community college. Although I know how to read notes and chords, I don't really understand how or why they are used. I know I need a very basic understanding of them. My progress lately has been so slow, and I believe it is because I don't really understand the language of music. It has become so bad lately that I actually dread approaching my piano. It is almost torture in frustration.

My best to all,
Kathleen

Well, Mendelssohn was in tune with Bach, anyway.

Kathleen, I honestly don't think a beginning piano class is going to give you anything like what you want. They will have you playing "Lightly Row," not learning to understand how music is put together. Isn't there perhaps a music theory class? Couldn't you talk with a private teacher about what you're looking for, perhaps even the teacher of that community college class? Perhaps a retired private teacher in your area who would have similar tastes to your own and be at a similar point in her life, and understand where you're coming from? Is there anyone who teaches improvisation? That would certainly get you thinking more clearly about the structure of music.

Pushing the envelope whether it wants to be pushed or not: I'm definitely on the program to dance to Chopin on March 5 at our bellydance studio's monthly restaurant performance. In a way it couldn't be a less appropriate venue-- little space, hard to see, kind of casually disorganized-- but at the same time it's perfect because it's mostly dancers and their families and friends, and it's a safe space for experimentation. Anyway, my teacher said, “Chopin would be lovely.”

My Nia dance teacher has been advising me on my choreography for the slow movement of the cello sonata, and helping me to tell a meaningful story rather than simply wow with sinuous arm movements. Early on I had decided to tell the obvious story, the one about love and loss and knowing that you have to leave someone though it’s the last thing you’d want. Now it seems to fit with recent events as well as with the composer’s life.

When I was discussing this with my teacher, she asked, “And who was he in the toxic relationship with?” I replied, “George Sand,” and she exclaimed, “Oh, of course, George Sand! She was amazing!” I add this mostly for MR; she used to tell me that hardly anyone in England had heard of Mme Sand, and I insisted that she is extremely well known in the US.

Elene

I'm the opposite. I can easily momorize arpeggiated sequences after just a few run-throughs, but block chords take much more time. I'm actually quite a good memorizer (and for this reason am a very bad sight reader), but the chords get me every time.

I think it's something to do with being able to guide my hand when there are arpeggios and 'root' a finger that I rotate around, but not so much when they're chords.

On an unrelated note:

http://lefthandpiano.com/gallerie_image.php?ImgId=49&border=0&color=000000

Anyone with a left handed piano fancy leaning it?

Hi Everyone,
I joined this thread months ago, but did not have anything to contribute or ask for guidance. Well, I also love Chopin, and while in Poland in 2007 heard a wonderful young women play an all Chopin concert for us. I recently got back to the piano 21/2 years ago after a 45 years. After some searching found a wonderful teacher who I have been with for 1 1/2 years. We both pick what I get to work on and last summer I asked her if she thought I could tackle a Nocture. She said she would pick one that she thougth I could handle. She picked Op 32, No.1 in B Major. I have been working on page 1 for the past 3 weeks, and started page 2 last week. I love the melodic theme, but the ending is so dark. Do you guys agree? When I first stared, I was discouraged, many of the stretches in the left hand are a challenge for me, as I have small hands. The first page is comming along, slowly! I'll keep working at it, because I would love to be able to play it for my own enjoyment. Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
Dot

Kathleen, I don't think a course for beginners would benefit you either, even if you feel you have doubts. Maybe some private lessons would be more beneficial to dissipate your doubts. There will be a lot of boring stuff in the course for beginners, while if you have a private teacher you can specifically address your doubts/questions.

Welcome, Dot!

Hi Dot:

OMG, that nocturne is rated at a level of 8! That is considered a mid-advanced level. I believe it is much too difficult for you (and for me and for many others). I can't understand why your teacher chose such an impossible piece for you to start off with. Although (Bailie--she wrote a book on how to play Chopin's music) stated that it is, from a technical point, one of the easier numbers, musically it is far from straightforward. I took one look at the first page and said WOW! Although it is quite lovely, the melody pure and simple, that left hand is a killer (in my opinion) at least for you, now. There are other nocturnes you could start with that wouldn't cause you such frustration and angst.

Nocturne 21 in C m (posth) is rated as a 6. Even though the LH can seem monotonous at times, I think it would be good paractice for you with LH broken chords. I know it helped me. It also has a lovely melody, quite Polish sounding. Also nocturne #20 in C#m (posth). It is a 7, and contains a long run of 36 notes near the end. But still the rest of it is, while not easy, something you might be able to handle.

I don't want to go against your teacher's advice. But, gosh, to start you with an 8 is brutal, in my opinion.

I've posted them below from youtube.

Good luck to you and let us know how you are doing.

Thanks all for your advice about that beginning level class. You are so right. While I can't really afford a teacher right now, I did discover at book at Barnes and Noble that I think will really help me understand a lot of what I need to know.

Kathleen