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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1352946 01/18/10 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
CP 5 demo by none other then BAD MISTER himself


I thought it was a rather uninspiring demo. He didn't seem very comfortable with the instrument. Where's Bert? We need Bert! We need excitement, energy!


I certainly felt that Phil at least played the piano, unlike the CP1 Demo where you were lucky if they played a dozen notes.
Clyde


DX7IIFD, SY77, SY99, Hammond C3, Steinway L, CP300, etc.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
wildpaws #1352977 01/18/10 10:12 PM
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I'm hearing that the NW Stage action is largely the same as NW (ie. plastic keys with pieces of wood attached to either side), yet without grade-weighted hammers.

Can anyone confirm this?

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Kawai James #1353007 01/18/10 10:54 PM
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Nah its more like the keys on one of the top line Clavinova's its a fantastic action actually.


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1353008 01/18/10 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
CP 5 demo by none other then BAD MISTER himself


I thought it was a rather uninspiring demo. He didn't seem very comfortable with the instrument. Where's Bert? We need Bert! We need excitement, energy!

What's the actual point of posting a video recorded using the video cameras mic? I don't get it? How does this piano actually sound? No clue, based on this (and many other) videos.

Pa-leze, SOMEONE record from the audio outputs. Otherwise, its like teasing from a cheap hooker. (Not sure if I would want to dabble there, or not . . . )


He'd been there all day ...he was tired.

But it WAS Phil ... not as entertaining as Bert but 10 times the player.


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dr Popper #1353009 01/18/10 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Nah its more like the keys on one of the top line Clavinova's...


Yes, that's what I mean. NH (as found on the CLP-370/CLP-380) is essentially GH3 with pieces of wood attached to the sides of the keys.

Can you confirm whether or not the action uses grade-weighted hammers?

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Rille Stark #1353112 01/19/10 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Richard Stark
"Spectral Component Modeling" sounds like an interesting technical term... cool

From a Yamaha Professional called Athan at the Music Player forum:

Originally Posted by dewster
They won't tell us so we end up speculating. That was a very confusing issue, even Yamaha's people couldn't communicate it very clearly.


Sorry, thought the post last week was pretty clear , but it WAS 6 am on the second day of NAMM

Spectral Component Modeling - Spectral Components Modeling is somewhat of a play on words. If you look at the diagrams in the CP Series brochure, you can see the different component blocks - The piano type, the preamp type , the VCM modulation effect, the power amp compressor block and reverb block. So one meaning of the Component Modeling is that we modeled different components of the signal chain.

At Yamaha when we use the term modeling we mean an actual mathematical model of a process or instrument. The VL1, VL70M and Virtual Circuit Modeling are all examples of Yamaha modeling and actually the same engineer who developed those models developed the CP series modeling. So the VCM effects, Preamps, Power Amp. Compressors, and speaker simulation are all models.


The CP1 has three different Piano Types (Acoustic, Electric and Synthesizer) each with a different core tone generation system. We selected the technologies that we felt were the best sounding available for that sound.

Acoustic Piano Type -Samples with some components of the piano itself modeled like hammer stiffness and sound board resonance and also a modeled mic preamp.

Electric Piano Type - This is the other part of the meaning of Spectral Component Modeling. We use spectral components of the sound for the electric piano models. Rather than multi-velocity layers of samples, SCM for the electric piano uses granular spectral parametric data so every nuance of the player’s touch is translated into expressive tone. There is nothing that is at all like what is normal referred to as a sample in the core ounds of the electric pianos. We did record many different vintage EPs to get information for the models , but there are no split points ot velocity switches or anything that is a " waveform".

However we do have multiple technologies available in the CP1. So for example some one commented that they did not think the electric pianos had note offs- actually they do. We didn't model the note offs as they do not have different characterisitics based on how hard you play. We just used sampled note offs.

Synthesizer Piano Type - In the CP1, it is real FM. Period. There are 4 of the most popular DX7 EP algorithms. On the VCM effects block there is a model of the TX816 chorus. There is a separate DSP chip to do the calculations necessary for FM.

Yamaha (and other companies) have done products with multiple synthesis methods before.

The CP5 does not have the mic preamp Models ( which accounts for the difference in the number of acoustic pianos listed in the brochure- there are 2 band mic preamps and a 3 band mic preamps in the CP1 and these are listed as different acoustic piano types) , the extra DSP for FM and of course the design elements and price are different.

The CP50 has one acoustic piano the CFIII and one tine model, the 75 and both reed models ( 69 and the 77). n

You can gleen all this information from either the CP Series catalog or the Illustrated Guide. They are available here. CP1 Resources Page

Anyway, we just try to provide the information we have in as clear a way as possible and stay away from opinions or value judgements.

It will be up to you to play the new CP Series and make up your own mind about it.

Hope that helps !

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1353119 01/19/10 02:23 AM
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2005 NY Steinway D
Yamaha CP4, CP5
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dave Ferris #1353122 01/19/10 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Ferris


Hobbyists and hacks of the world unite @ pianoworld.com


Geeze..... careful with that axe Eugene ....


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dr Popper #1353138 01/19/10 03:01 AM
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Richard Stark, many thanks for pasting Athan's post - I think he explains SCM very clearly, without going into too much technical detail.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dr Popper #1353175 01/19/10 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by Dave Ferris


Hobbyists and hacks of the world unite @ pianoworld.com


Geeze..... careful with that axe Eugene ....


Not surprising. mr. dewster's antics over there have not exactly made pianoworld look good. He's been moderated a bit now, so hopefully the CP thread can get back on track.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
box #1353192 01/19/10 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by box
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by Dave Ferris


Hobbyists and hacks of the world unite @ pianoworld.com


Geeze..... careful with that axe Eugene ....


Not surprising. mr. dewster's antics over there have not exactly made pianoworld look good. He's been moderated a bit now, so hopefully the CP thread can get back on track.


They just don't know him like we do ... if you accept from the outset that he's obsessed he's as lovable as a new puppy wink


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dr Popper #1353194 01/19/10 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper
They just don't know him like we do ... if you accept from the outset that he's obsessed he's as lovable as a new puppy wink


As long as there's newspaper on the floor. wink


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Kawai James #1353208 01/19/10 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by KAWAI James
Richard Stark, many thanks for pasting Athan's post - I think he explains SCM very clearly, without going into too much technical detail.

Cheers,
James
x


+1

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
theJourney #1353381 01/19/10 01:26 PM
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More info from Athan in the other forum about the DX7 sounds:

Quote
The biggest difference between the CP1 and a DX7 is not in the digital domain, but rather in the quality of the D/A (digital to analog) convertors. The FM algorithms are the same as in the DX, but it sounds more like an FS1r in the output because D/A technology has come along way in the last 20 years. To be clear, there is no FM programming available. It is just 4 EP algorithms with some simple parameters like attack and release


And about the CP1 missing features compared to the CP5:

Quote
It is definitely not typical that the flagship has less features than the other products in the line. But then again a samurai sword doesn't have a bottle opener on it. :rolleyes

For a majority of people, the CP5 is going to have the best feature set for their needs and budget. Again if you read the threads here people have confirmed that the keyboard action and core sounds are the same between the CP1 and CP5. The CP1 is a design statement and you probably have to see it in person to really appreciate it.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dr Popper #1353666 01/19/10 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
CP 5 demo by none other then BAD MISTER himself


I thought it was a rather uninspiring demo. He didn't seem very comfortable with the instrument. Where's Bert? We need Bert! We need excitement, energy!

What's the actual point of posting a video recorded using the video cameras mic? I don't get it? How does this piano actually sound? No clue, based on this (and many other) videos.



He'd been there all day ...he was tired.

But it WAS Phil ... not as entertaining as Bert but 10 times the player.


OK. I agree. He was tired. He's a great player and musician. However, it was uninspiring at least to me, and the sound quality was terrible. I'd really like to see / hear someone that is passionate about this instrument, playing it so that we can hear the quality. That's all.

It's like my music. If I posted crappy examples, I wouldn't exactly get a lot of folks interested in buying it, would I? (Trust me - it really sounds better than what I've posted).

Yamaha apparently spent 5 years developing the CP1. Is it too much to ask for some quality demos?

Apparently it is.

Then the typical response is going to be "you've got to play it". I agree with this BUT, the only stores (at least in my area) that will bring it in are big box, loud, noisy (think guitar heads a few feet away). It will be hooked up to crappy monitors, so far apart that you're really listening to one channel of the stereo.

I'm supposed to evaluate the keyboard under these circumstances? Well, I can get something of an idea, but really I'd like a whole bunch of CD quality demos as well. So I can listen, in the quiet of my studio, through my monitors.

Lawrence

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1353691 01/19/10 10:13 PM
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Lawrence, I'm sure Yamaha will put out some excellent demos in due course.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1353768 01/20/10 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
What's the actual point of posting a video recorded using the video cameras mic? I don't get it? How does this piano actually sound? No clue, based on this (and many other) videos.

Shaky video with crap audio must be some kind of NAMM tradition. A little work on the presentation here would go a long way.

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Yamaha apparently spent 5 years developing the CP1.

Wow, where did you hear that? Not that I don't believe it.

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Then the typical response is going to be "you've got to play it". I agree with this BUT, the only stores (at least in my area) that will bring it in are big box, loud, noisy (think guitar heads a few feet away). It will be hooked up to crappy monitors, so far apart that you're really listening to one channel of the stereo.

That's why I was pushing them so hard to give any technical info at all (and caught holy heck over it - my fault for not being more tactful, and for not knowing I was walking into more of a club than a forum). I can't spend the rest of my life tracking these things down and comparing them in noisy Guitar Centers and such. Just tell me if the CFIII sample is the same across all models. Then if I happen to run across one of them somewhere in a less than unideal demo environment, I'll know the sound at least will be comparable regardless of which one I might chose or recommend.

They're playing their cards too close to the chest. I might be reading it wrong, but it seemed to me that people had to really make a fuss before they came clean on the FM thing for instance. And after all that I wonder what the fuss was about - an exceedingly limited and so disappointing DX7 implementation.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
madshi #1353771 01/20/10 12:24 AM
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Quote
It is definitely not typical that the flagship has less features than the other products in the line. But then again a samurai sword doesn't have a bottle opener on it. :rolleyes

Funny, "rolls eyes" was pretty much my reaction to that statement too.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1353826 01/20/10 01:52 AM
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dewster, my apologies, I haven't been keeping up with the discussion on the other forum, however may I ask you to clarify what you mean by "came clean on the FM thing"?

The FM simulation is entirely modelled, is it not?

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Kawai James #1353840 01/20/10 02:17 AM
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This is how Athan a Yamaha Professional expressed it on The Keyboard Corner:

Synthesizer Piano Type - In the CP1, it is real FM. Period. There are 4 of the most popular DX7 EP algorithms. On the VCM effects block there is a model of the TX816 chorus. There is a separate DSP chip to do the calculations necessary for FM.


Peace

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