Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Grand piano buying: what is reasonable?

Hi All,

For the time being it's just a dream, but in the future I'd like to switch my upright for a nice grand piano.
In choosing a grand piano, the higher you move up the ladder the better sound and action you're probably going to get.

However, when you're only an amateur, playing for your own pleasure without really performing, unless maybe a recording now and then, what is acceptable price- and quality-wise?

I feel like, if I'd go buying a Bechstein or a Bosendorfer, it just wouldn't do justice to the instrument itself being in the hands of an amateur, it'd almost make me feel bad. Also, it would seem like I'm wasting soooo much money on an instrument without being a pro. It seems like it'd be like an insane choice, even though it might have the best sound and action.

On the other hand, I've already heard beautifully sounding Seilers. Probably other instruments in the same price league like Sauters or maybe even Bechstein's of Bosendorfer's cheaper Academy series...?
Here a second question in the same topic... regarding Bechstein and Bosie, the academy series they offer are about half the price of their standard series. How is this explained? What's the difference in build, sound and action quality? Are they worth it or, unless you can have a real Bech or Bosie, is it better to go for a Seiler or a Sauter or other?

Like to read your reactions.

greetings,

PS

I think you should get the best grand piano you can afford. Would it really make you feel bad to own it and play it, or rather would it make you bad thinking that other people would find it hard to understand?

I think of a piano as a tool; and instrument in the true sense of the word. At my first recital 3 years ago I got to play a Steinway D concert grand. I never played better in my life, because that piano was like a surgeon's fine scalpel. It made me able to do everything I wanted to do. And this may sound crazy and new-agey, but before the recital, that D intimidated me. I could imagine it saying to me "who do you think you are, playing ME?" But once I started playing, it almost seemed like the piano welcomed me and wanted to help me do my best. Sounds crazy, I know.

I'm just a beginner, but I bought a nice grand 2 years ago and I've never regretted it. I get so much enjoyment from playing it and it has made me a better player.

Who needs a good tool more than someone who is lacking skills? If I'm being operated on by a mediocre surgeon, I don't want him/her using a dull scalpel.

Even though we may not be able to bring out a fine piano's full potential, we need all the help we can get!

Only you can decide what's ressonable for you. Depends on your finances, how much more you like the tone/touch/appearance of the more expensive pianos, and personal priorities. If your playing level is low I would say you can't "do justce"(get the best sound out of) to any piano, not just a high priced one but that may change and it doesn't necessarily mean you should buy a less expensive piano.

Are you thinking of spending more than year's salary on a piano or...

If you're looking for an "excuse" to spend more, think of the additional cost spread out over 10 or 25 years and it will look like less.

If only life were so simple... :-)

If I spent my life's savings I could get a top notch concert grand - in that sense I can afford one. However, since I have three kids and a mortgage that is larger than my savings, and playing the piano is lower in my priorities than funding my children's university educations, I have just bought a grand piano that costs much less than I can afford.

I am afraid that there is no answer to the OP's question. There is a process to go through when spending large amounts of money - you need to judge the spend against your other needs, fears and desires. One comment I would make, however, is not to think in terms of 'waste'. A piano isn't wasted on you (if you play it) - Bosendorfer will always make more, and you aren't depriving anyone else of a piano by buying one, rather the opposite. The only risk is regret, and nobody else can judge that for you.

mric,

May I ask wich piano you've bought? In a few years from now, I'll probably be more or less in the same position as you're now.
From that point of view, you might be a good reference.

Okay, I think as a pro, being paid for to play, and having that pay as your main income it seems justified to own a Bosie, Bechie :), Steinway or whatever top model there is out there. As an amateur, just playing as a hobby after work and nothing more, it doesn't seem justified, even if it makes you play better. Unless maybe, if later on, when you're old and grey and moving to something smaller (just an example) you can get a decent price for is.
But unless it's a top of the line brand like the ones above, that seems unlikely to me. I think of it as a car, when it leaves the showroom it loses half it's value, and after ten, twenty years you'll probably only get a fraction for it anymore. Am I wrong here?

regards

PS

In a way you are right about some pianos being like cars and loosing a huge amount of their value as they leave the showroom floor headed for your house. Some of the big names, like Steinway, Bosendorfer, Bechstein, for example, will retain much (but usually not all) of their original price in resale value. Felts harden, leathers dry out, strings corrode, soundboards lose their crown (highly debated topid), so nobody in their right mind will pay the new price for a 30 year old version of a piano. So, paying $80,000for a nice piano only have sell it for $50,000 twenty years form now is not a good investment, if all you want is an investment. But, what value do you place on having an instrument to play and enjoy, and help you maximize your playing? I think that's either answered as "not so much" or "Priceless."

Even so, practically speaking, go play several REALLY nice grands, then move on to other GOOD grands, then play some Okay grands and judge for yourself how you will spend your money. Most pianos are not really investments in the traditional sense, and they require maintanance. So buy what you can afford that makes you feel happy.

I bought a Brodmann 187 (6'2"). Relatively cheap, as far as grand pianos go, but I liked the sound and feel. I also liked the Yamaha C3, but it was 50% more expensive than the Brodmann, and though it had a more reassuring brand name, it didn't sound any better. I tried out more than 20 options before narrowing it down to that. If I was more brand sensitive and risk averse, I would have bought the Yamaha.

I have played finer instruments than either, but they all cost at least twice as much. I think you will need to ask me again in ten years time whether I made the 'best' choice. However, I try hard not to suffer from buyer's regret, so I am pretty determined to believe my new piano is the bee's knees!

Hi,
some months ago I was in almost the same situation: wanting to spend some money on a grand after spending many years on a digital and afraid to spend too much, but also determined not to buy a piano that didn't satisfy me. And, of course, being only an amateur.
It took quite a while to resolve the problem, and I was able to solve it only by playing many different pianos, from Steinways (I fell in love with a Steinway D, but it was absolutely out of range...) to old August Forsters, from Schimmels to Wend & Lungs, passing through brands that I hadn't heard before.
With time, I started to understand what I really liked, what I could live without and what "I couldn't", what a reasonable price was.

I had friends telling me that it was impossible that price differences of tens thousand of euros corresponded to real sound, feel and quality differences that an amateur could really perceive, and in the beginning it made me doubt if it made sense, for me, to spend much money on a piano. But after some weeks of tests I was more and more convinced that the differences are, most of the times, wide, and that even a non professional pianist like me can greatly enjoy them and benefit in his playing (sorry for my english, I'm not sure this is a correct sentence...).

As others in this post have told you, a better instrument will let you play better, and will "call" you more on the keyboard, so you'll play more and grow better.

And, at last, why should you "downgrade" to something smaller when you retire? That's probably the time to enjoy even more your piano!

Best wishes
Paolo

Another piano you might want to consider is Shigeru Kawai. Some say its as good as Bosie etc. and it will be about 2/3 of the cost of a bosendorfer, maybe even half where you live.

Louis = Kawai should be paying you. Every time there is a thread, you chime in claiming that Shigerus are as good as the SteinFazDorfer.

PS77 - a piano is just an inanimate object. There is no requirement for you to do it justice.

My advice, having owned several pianos either at home or in a studio environment, is build up your experience, don't be swayed by brand names, and eventually buy what you most enjoy musically.

Most performance (as opposed to teaching) pro's that I have known over the years tend to go for a Steinway D if they have space and can afford it or failing that a B. If they can't afford the Steinway, they often go for a Yamaha CF111S, which sounds and feels fairly similar and also can take a lot of punishment.

In my experience, 2nd choice for many pro's is a Boesendorfer.

Pro players need to practice on an instrument that will be similar to what they will most often perform on.

You, as an amateur, have no such constraint and so your palette is much wider. These days we have a vast choice of many good new and used grands from China, Japan, Europe and the US in the 6-7ft range (I would not go smaller personally) at most price points.

Start playing them now. By the time you have the cash to buy, you'll pretty much know what you like.

In your shoes my money would be spent on a used (to avoid the truly huge depreciation hit), less than 15 years old, 6-7ft grand from a reputable maker. I would pay minimal attention to brand names and a lot of attention to sound, feel and reputation for stability.

The piano industry is evolving rapidly. Since you plan to buy well into the future, I would wait and ask this question when you are ready to start shopping seriously.

Who knows? You may be able to get a Vietnamese-made Steinway with a carbon fiber soundboard for under $3000!

To me, buying and using a piano is a delightful luxury. Therefore, essentials must be considered first. After examining financial resource requirements for essentials, you can determine what is available for luxuries. This, or something close to it, establishes your upper limit for a piano purchase, if this is your only intended luxury.

As for the minimum purchase price, in my opinion, it is possible to obtain a high quality instrument for approximately $10,000 or less. Many used instruments fall into this bracket, as do a few new instruments. I believe my Hailun HG178 is still available for this much or less, and I'm sure there are others (see Larry Fine's book).

Within this range, you should suit yourself. Shop and compare. Listen and consider. I am an Intermediate level player (I think), and found dimishing returns at perhaps a different level than a concert pianist might. After playing
Steinways, Schimmels, Kawaii, Yamaha and others, I chose Hailun. But you should choose what you like and can comfortably afford.

Whatever you do, don't "settle" for something that you are not enthusiastic about. Take you time, and find one that "speaks to you", and you won't regret it. You'll also find yourself playing more.

Hop

I believe the little things are just as important as the bigger things. If you buy a piano that bothers you in little ways, you are less likely to play it, then if you owned a piano which you are proud of. Quoting Sir Henry Royce of Rolls Royce fame, "Long after the cost is forgotten, the quality endures." Buy the best you afford, or even a little more than you think you can afford. You wouldn't regret it.

I've been playing for over 20 years, but I have to admit that sometimes I feel the need to apologize to my piano for not being better than I am. The feeling usually passes fairly quickly


How much you spend on your piano depends not only on your income, but also on your priorities. There are millionairres who would never think of spending over $10,000 on a piano. On the other hand, there are average Joe's who own Steinways and Bosendorfers.

after you play lots and lots and lots of grand pianos, you'll have a better idea of what your own personal priorities are.

bear in mind the technician. who your technician is is perhaps the most important part of the equation.

if you live in an area where there are great technicians, you could spend a lot less on an asian piano and then use the money you might otherwise have spent on a "prestige name" piano on technical services.

that would be a very smart way to go.

if you don't have great technicians where you live, then.... it might be more important to get a make that is known for superb workmanship, stability, and durability.

the sound you get can be affected by so many factors... the name on the fallboard is only one of dozens of factors.

the feel of the action may be terrific the day you buy the piano, but if you don't have a great tech, it is going to deteriorate very soon.

if you are short on funds and yet very picky about what you like, you could do just fine buying a nice chinese grand and giving a great tech full rein to do whatever needs to be done to make it into a great piano.

My idea is, what is a good tech? how do you know you have one? out here, there's no association or anything so if i'd want, i could be a tech as of tomorrow... I've always found that annoying... not being able to judge that...

PS

Regarding prices, one tends to think cheap is bad because, where are the differences between cheap korean and steinway, not only name I hope?

how do you asses build quality? making sure it won't be worn out after ten years?
just some random thoughts before bed time

PS

Read Piano Buyer and visit www.ptg.org.

you are right! anyone can claim they are a tech. if they are an rpt, you know they have a baseline level of competence, but it doesn't mean they have a gift. and some very gifted techs are not rpts, so don't make that a requirement.

you know if you have a great tech if their prep work makes you swoon.

if you play pianos in the stores, and one store in particular has beautifully prepared pianos, ask them who their tech is.

find out who is the tuner for the opera, the symphony, the ballet.

ask your piano teacher, ask your friends, ask the ptg who the local members are.

after a while, the same names will keep getting repeated. call those techs up and ask if you can play a piano they recently prepared and that they feel is their best work.

if you love the sound they created, there you are!

people should pay less attention to the name on the fallboard and more attention to the name of the person who wielded the tuning hammer.

You mean, how do you ASSESS build quality...? Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Get Larry Fine's book, "The Piano Book" and read up a bit. There's a lot to learn about pianos and what makes good and not-so-good pianos. It's way, way too much to discuss in a few forum postings. Also, check out Perry Knize's (Pique' --- notice that she has replied to you ) book "Grand Obsession." It will give you alot of great information on differences between pianos and how they do what makes us all love them.