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Well let's say I did the same with your recordings and postings. If I wasn't entirely careful about what I was saying I could come to the same conclusions about what you should be doing with your music. From what I've heard you play and post I definitely have some personal observations as well, but there would be no point in offering you my advice since you weren't asking me for it.

As it should be. I'm quite happy to realize I know so little because I'm completely aware of what I DO know, and am looking forward to learning more.

Yes, perhaps I am. That is if no one here is wanting to learn anything. I've only offered to show an alternative way to looking at some tunes. I've then been drawn into defending what I've discovered by those that can only see something they don't agree with. It's the defense I find tiring. I thought this thread was about sharing ideas? Where did that go? As I remember, I tried to start another thread with workshopping ideas, but no one wanted to do it. So, I continue here, and get shot down. Bah.

Easier said than done. I've played locally for years, but have yet to find too many local players that can afford to workshop these types of things for fun. It's only on gigs that I'll get to try anything new out, and I haven't gigged in about 5 years unfortunately.

Well I hope this isn't true. I've asked others on this thread before why they were here. I'll ask you now. If it is to learn something, then don't assume that you have all the answers (for one, because you said yourself how little you know etc), and perhaps look at my analysis a bit to see if it makes any sense to you. If you aren't interested in the analysis, then don't worry about giving me advice about how I am doing anything, or what I should aspire to as a player, because I'm not seeking that kind of input. I don't think anyone here is, are they? Why single out me?

And I agree. This is why I don't want to continue learning tunes from books, at least in jazz. Also, I think you missed the part where I said I came up with the changes. I did transcribe from a recording, but I just didn't do all the voicings. Only enough to satisfy what I believe he was doing, and when I played along nothing clashed. My first recent post on the topic of Very Early was all about being careful about what you READ, not what you hear. So, yes, I believe transcribing is a better method for understanding a tune.

Also, have you transcribed a version of Very Early? If so, I'd love to see it. Did I mention that I'm lazy?

Yes, I'm going to post a recording tonight if I can get to the piano. And, I wasn't trying to make things more complicated, but to actually show the underlying simplicity of the tune. Obviously I failed in my attempt to do so.

scepticalforumguy,

Again, the problem here is that there are major flaws in your analysis, and you only have your "faith" to prove it. I think people have given you enough reasons as to why it's wrong.. beeboss has even told you the bass notes on the recordings, which IMO puts some of the debate to rest.

If your approach makes you play better, than by all means that's great. But I don't think anyone here can relate to it.. and I am guessing most teachers will point out similar flaw in your analysis too. Bottom line is this, if your approach works, it should be self-evident in your playing... in other words, you probably wouldn't need to tell us, we would be asking you what you are doing instead.

as far as transcribing is concerned, I think I've done like at least a dozen Bill Evans Solo but not Very Early. I still feel like that's not a tune I am ready to really play yet.

btw did you transcribe it from an actual Bill Evans recording? I know its a lot of work but figuring out the exact voicing can be very helpful, and will put much of the discussion to rest. I am lazy too, but I guess I am also anal too.. so I end up transcribing because I can't stand not knowing what's going on

Wow -- all this discussion has turned personal and it doesn't have to be. I gave some very specific points on Very Early. It's just basic analysis and I think it should be part of looking at any tune. Certainly I'm encouraged to do that by my own teacher. It seems to me that we need to look at the changes I have laid above and discuss it without getting any personal stuff in here.

We have a very unusual tune here in VE where the normal V-I cycles are not in the expected pairs and is offset by one measure. IT IS AMAZING to me that this little change changed the character of the tune completely.

Now I personally have no problem hearing it as some sort of delayed V-I cycles (sorry I wrote ii-V earlier when I meant V-I). There's no ii chords in the first part of A which is interesting too.

Since the V doesn't get resolved at the expected release point (the second bar of a pair), this tune sounds off balanced and initially threw me off, looking in hindsight. If you doubt what I'm saying, take off the CMaj7 at the beginning and listen to the tune organized in V-I pairs. It sounds completely different.

This new realization probably makes me understand the tune more and may lessen the memorization problem. It also seems to be a conflict of hearing between Scep and I since I'm clearly thinking of the V-I's at all times and am no longer bothered by the 1 measure offset.

An aside...

As a comment on my performance of this, please don't expect finished results/perfection here. I did a one take of this based on what I know now on a tune that is difficult for me. Obviously, I still forget where I am so I posted in the interest of getting a timely recording.

I'm finding that posting a final version isn't necessary for me other than to boast that I figured it out and that's not the point of this thread. So I've really learned Nefertiti now but I'm not going to learn anything by posting a "final" version of it so I don't. If you come see me I'll play it for you. And maybe VE a few weeks from now.

But what are you basing this on? I've yet to find a chord that I play as wrong on Very Early. Actually, that's not quite true. I'm still looking at two chords which confound me a bit in the B section.

Well I have a recording now but people will have to endure talking in the background.


Yup it was one of the two that come up on youtube of Bill Evans with Gomez and Morell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Fhd689Pwak


Well I'm counting on you to be less lazy than me. You're younger, and still playing lots in public, so you have far more to gain than me. Come on, do it for the team.

I just realized something else: I think I may be coming across as some sort of 'quack visionary' in that I'm suggesting I knew what Shorter and Bill Evans were doing, even though I didn't transcribe every chord tone I heard. I think that may have made everyone here a bit on edge, so my apologies. I really don't profess to be some sort of Jazz Medium, I'm just transcribing what I hear and trying to tie things together in a way that makes sense to me. And, yes, the changes I came up with would work with any soloist playing over the real book changes, so I don't really think there is any problem with my analysis.

etcetera, BTW I neglected to tell you that you did a nice job on that Maiden Voyage in 7. Better you than me I can't handle that. My limit is 5/4...

But in case you forget, you've been in this thread before. In fact, I seem to recall you posting the Maiden Voyage somewhere earlier in this thread (don't worry I'm not going to look back and search for it).

scep, dude, I'm not going to pour over your posts to find the hidden meaning of something that isn't there. I read it once and that's good enough.

Each person has their own unique approach to playing and jazz. Like when we talked and you had your numbers method to improvising. It doesn't work for me so I do something else. Seeing who can reharm Happy Birthday better isn't going to prove anything.

I noticed your approach to music is to nitpick the flaws. You seem to be on a quest for a perfection that does not exist, rather than just enjoy the music.

Again, I ask you, what's your reason for playing jazz and improvising? Fun and joy should be up there. If you aren't smiling each time you sit down at the piano, something's wrong.

scepticalforumguy

just a quick note on Eddie Gomez.. I think he does this thing where he intentionally plays a different bass notes to instantly reharmonize any give harmony... i.e. playing B on Cmaj7#11, making it sound more like B phryigian, hanging on A or even G# on Bmin7, or something like that. I remember him doing something like that on Time Remembered. I can't say that's what's happening here, but that may obscure the harmony too.

Btw Bill's playing on the clip is great, but I do feel like the tempo is a little too frantic. I guess that's what makes it hard for me to listen to his later stuff.. he pushes the tempo a lot.. and for me it's too much. In fact I read that Joe Labarbra had problem with Bill because he rushed so much and drove him nuts.



jazzwee

yea i think i posted the older version before.. i figured I'd repost for contrast . speaking of 5/4, i remember doing a tune in 5 and we were rehearsing a tune in 3 after that.. i just couldn't do it... i kept on playing in 5 and I was having trouble staying in 3!!

I am smiling each time I sit at the piano, believe me. It's coming here to explain myself after I post something that no one understands that frustrates the f@ck out of me.

And yes, playing reharm to Happy Birthday would prove something, IMO. It would prove that when you suggest you can do something, then you do it. I even said I'd do it with you because it seems just as valid as doing anything else. I'm actually working on our beloved national anthem occasionally because I think the chords in there are spectacular. (We're both Canadian, by the way for those who didn't know).

So, I'd like to come to this forum and have the same positive experience I have at the piano. What have I done to deserve less?

Great. Where were you when I started transcribing from this recording?!?! So, this may explain my cool chords then. In any case, they still work for me, and they seemed to work for Evans on the recording too.

yup it's frantic alright. that's also how I tend to play it most times. Trouble is, I also rush


I'm just dowloading something I recorded in a few minutes for those that care to hear...

scep, I just suggested happy birthday in 10 keys facetiously. I guess you missed the sarcasm. I sure got better things to play than that. If you want me and you to both do a free improv I am all up for it.

Or if you really want to be challenged then how about an Asian sounding improv. Try soloing over the melody on this tune:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-aDiQ7PTn8

Or this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcEdTGFxWtM&feature=related

btw, I'm Asian so I might have an unfair advantage. =)


Actually I'd like to hear your version of the anthem, never thought of trying that. Best while the Canucks are still playing!

Done. Should I post first or you? I haven't listened to it yet, but I'm not one to say no to something new.


I don't have any improv versions of the anthem, but I'm just trying to learn the tune in 12 keys with some style and finesse. The chords are straight forward enough in most cases (except for one little area that I can never remember). Maybe I'll look into doing some jazz version of that too.

Just listened to the first youtube post, Wiz. The only thing we can't really do on the piano is get the microtone stuff (bent notes). Otherwise the hard thing to me seems to make something sound interesting that essentially stays in the same tonal centre for 10 minutes.

If you're serious about doing something like this, by all means I'll post something too.

Yeah the trouble with the piano is you can't bend notes like a stringed instrument. I've tried playing those Asian sounding songs and it doesn't have the same effect. By all means feel free to post first. I don't have a recording device right now so I can't put anything up.

I'd be willing to play it to you in person but I don't know if you want to invite me over. Hehehe. =)

scepticalforumguy

I am not going to delve deeper into your analysis as the last time I pointed out that some of the notes you had transcribed were wrong you called me 'insulting'. I must admit that I am confused by your approach - one minute you say that learnining by ear is the best way and the next you are encouraging someone else to transcribe the tune for you because you are too 'lazy'. But that is all the real book is - someone elses transcription of the tune.

Fwiw I find the easiest and quickest approach to learning a tune is to look at the changes on a chart whilst listening to what a great player actually does to them, and adding some annotations about voicings and passing chords into the part. Then as I play the tune from the book I am gradually absorbing all that good information at the same time as memorizing and getting familiar with the standard changes and melody.

I also do plenty of transcription of tunes not in the real books which is ultimately better but it takes a lot longer because if I don't write a part out (which is what takes the time) I will have forgotten the tune after not playing it for a month. A visual aid to memory can also be very helpful.

It was the way you said it. If you looked at my changes, and then compared them to the book, then yes, they'd appear wrong. However, I didn't say that the changes I found would match any book. I'm trying to illustrate what I found by transcribing (without being meticulous with every note and voicing that Evans did), and coupling that with whatever theory I think he was leaning on. So, the chords I suggested looked far more 'out' than the string of 7s in the book.

I'm too lazy to get every single internal note, but would be curious to see what those with better ears have come up with. I don't see a problem with leaving something to someone else that may be able to do it better and faster than me.

That seems like a very good way to do things. I'm not certain that it would stick with me the same way though. When I did look at the book for VE because I was stuck on two chords (thanks to Gomez apparently) those chords stuck with me, but in a way that now gets me tripped up because I have only a visual memory, and less of an aural one to guide me.


You see, I don't do many transcriptions at all. I've only recently found it to be of interest. But with all new endeavours there is a learning curve. And the curve seems very steep to me at the moment.
Tell me, though, how does one listen for the exact chords and voicings? I can hear the chords to a point, but I find myself bogged down on whether there is a 9 or 13 stuck in there somewhere, and I just tend to bypass this step in favor of using my theory to fill in the gaps. Is there a better way out there that is easier and allows one to hear things more clearly?

If you can stand it...

http://www.box.net/shared/a98lljtmao

I run through the piece stopping with some explanations and then do it in a few different tempos.

And to avoid confusion, I'm not inviting any comments about my feel, timing, size of piano or general appearance. Anyone and everyone is welcome to comment about the chords I am using, because now I'm curious as to what I may have done completely wrong. Be gentle though. I cry easily.

The more you do it the better you get. I find I can generally hear the voicings pretty easily, but of course sometimes it is impossible to tell if the 9th or 13th is there, in which case I always take the attitude that if I really can't tell then it can't matter much one way or the other. It is usually the rhythm that gives me the most trouble. Compiling a lead sheet is different though as you have to work out what you think the basic chord structure is and ignore much of the stuff that just got played on the spur of the moment. If the tune is played in a fairly loose way then you almost need to transcribe both heads and average it out to get closer to what the real tune should be.

I am listening to Bill's Version again. He might doing passing chord on the head but it sound like he is going back to the normal changes for his solos.

Btw it's amazing how much rhythmic stuff he does on his playing.. I guess I am drawn more to that than what he is doing harmonically right now.