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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1349217 01/14/10 09:07 AM
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I'll second that "huh", Lawrence...t'would be nice if they'd give us more info and more sound samples, but I believe this is just Yamaha's way of teasing us.

We'll have to get the Dewster medicated. wink

Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
ChrisA #1349254 01/14/10 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisA
If you are looking for innovation you are just not looking in the right place. It's all moved to computers.

Oh, I know, and thanks. I'm just feeling extra cranky for some reason.

Originally Posted by ChrisA
But I'd like to see new kinds of keyboard too. Maybe the keys that can slide backwards and forwards to allows vibrato and note bending combine that with an analog synth ad also could play samples. What about keys with touch sensitive surfaces like the track pad on a notebook computer.

Bob Moog thought of these two things decades ago. He felt the sound side of synths had largely been done, but the controller part had a long way to go. I completely agree with that, and have become much more interested in innovative controller design than synthesis. There's no need for a key to be anywhere near a string or soundboard, no specific need for keys as we know them. So where are all the new controllers?

What passes for radical innovation these days is that stupid D-Beam festooning otherwise numbingly insipid fare. Which of course leads to NAMM videos with much waving of hands and other embarrassments.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
ElmerJFudd #1349288 01/14/10 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
acoustic piano... I mean, the instrument is over 300 years old and you clearly lust for the ultimate digital replica (as do I). wink

I'm really not on a snipe hunt. I don't need an ultimate piano sample, just a sufficiently decent and realistic one not residing on a PC.

Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
With that said, there is clearly a reason why we pursue this endeavor. The same reason why you would want to have the sound of the DX7, Wurlitzer, CP80, etc. at your fingertips (including modeling the preamps, fx stages, and amplifiers). Because these instruments sound great. We love the pieces/songs that were written for them. I'd like to own them all, but the technological advancement is of course getting "those sounds" and "that feel" without owning them all.

The field of synthesis has become overly corporate, and so the rate of real innovation has slowed to a crawl. It now appears to be entirely content with simply mining the past.

Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
Perhaps the better solution right now is in fact a hybrid instrument offering the benefits of both sample libraries and modeling technology. A hybrid approach of sorts yielded Yamaha's AvantGrand, an instrument that caught the attention of many people on this forum.

I don't see the AvantGrand as a hybrid, or anything innovative at all. It's just a souped up Clavinova with buttkickers.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1349412 01/14/10 02:40 PM
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Review from The Keyboard Corner by David Bryce :

Yamaha CP1 first impressions


Peace

Last edited by Richard Stark; 01/14/10 02:43 PM.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1349563 01/14/10 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster

I don't see the AvantGrand as a hybrid, or anything innovative at all. It's just a souped up Clavinova with buttkickers.


Agreed.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1349660 01/14/10 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster
I don't see the AvantGrand as a hybrid, or anything innovative at all. It's just a souped up Clavinova with buttkickers.
Yeah. But I hear it really kicks butt! smile smile

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
MacMacMac #1349663 01/14/10 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac

But I hear it really kicks butt! smile


Out of your pocket book . . . !

Last edited by Melodialworks Music; 01/14/10 07:09 PM.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Rille Stark #1349666 01/14/10 07:10 PM
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NAMM CP1 Video on youtube. Typical. 1,000 of quickly played notes, captured through a video cam mic. Useless.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1349683 01/14/10 07:27 PM
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The Avant Grand was the best feeling and sounding digital I've ever played, especially with the tactile feedback....however, for the price, it should have had more sounds(especially strings) and it should have had audio to USB recording.

It certainly had far more "soul" than the V-Piano, and perhaps even the new CP-l.

The CP-5 seems to be the best all-rounder, and still has that new wooden action.

Still, if all you want is a terrific piano sound and incredible tactile feedback that is as close to playing an acoustic grand as it gets, the Avant Grand is still the ticket to ride.

Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
snazzyplayer #1350184 01/15/10 05:32 AM
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I bet the CP-5 is the unit that will sell the most.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
snazzyplayer #1350322 01/15/10 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Still, if all you want is a terrific piano sound and incredible tactile feedback that is as close to playing an acoustic grand as it gets, the Avant Grand is still the ticket to ride.

Sorry Snazz, I'm sure it's more than the sum of its parts and a great play.

I just figured, with you having sold yours and all, that the thrill was gone and it was fair game to take pot-shots at again.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1350354 01/15/10 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Still, if all you want is a terrific piano sound and incredible tactile feedback that is as close to playing an acoustic grand as it gets, the Avant Grand is still the ticket to ride.

Sorry Snazz, I'm sure it's more than the sum of its parts and a great play.

I just figured, with you having sold yours and all, that the thrill was gone and it was fair game to take pot-shots at again.


No insult taken, Dews; my disappointment was not in how it played and sounded...it was the lack of features that I figured should have been part of the very expensive package, namely Audio to USB recording and at least a strings and perhaps a pipe and/or jazz organ voice. I had to midi a tone module to get a sound that is available on my lowly but goodie P-85.

So, when the suddenly acoustic-turned-digital aficionado Lowell made me a generous offer to buy my Avant Grand, I decided to sell and wait for the subsequent Avant Grand models that were implied at the N3's introduction.

As far as a "realistic piano playing experience", I haven't played anything that comes close to the Avant Grand N3...as I said in several of my posts, it has "soul".

I've put the loot away for another Avant Grand, and I've made enough profit from selling my N3 to actually pay for a new CP-1 (or CP-5), which isn't a bad thing at all, although I do miss the the former quite a bit.

I'm kinda hoping the new CP's satisfy my lust for a very capable stage piano, and I hope they will meet your criteria as well...Dave Bryce's review is very enlightening, but the real proof will come when we actually play it.

Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
theJourney #1350387 01/15/10 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by theJourney
I bet the CP-5 is the unit that will sell the most.


That would make the market department at Yamaha very disappointed. frown
The CP-50 is the high volume model for sure. smile


Peace

Last edited by Richard Stark; 01/15/10 12:34 PM.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Rille Stark #1350410 01/15/10 01:06 PM
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And the CP50 may in fact flop...

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
theJourney #1350447 01/15/10 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by theJourney
And the CP50 may in fact flop...

Bite your tongue! That's my possible future lover you're bad-mouthin' there.

Uh-oh, I think I've been hanging around Snazz too long... ;-)

Last edited by dewster; 01/15/10 01:54 PM.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1350758 01/15/10 09:21 PM
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Anyone else notice the conspicuous absence of Yamaha Moose?

What is it with these guys that you ask one slightly technical question and they're gone faster than you can say "inside man"?

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1350893 01/16/10 04:26 AM
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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
madshi #1350910 01/16/10 05:32 AM
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I've had a number of conversations today with people who have played the CP1, CP5 and CP50 at NAMM ... all of them (and two of them also own real Yamaha grands like I do ..a C7 and S6) have said (of the CP1) "This is the best sounding DP I've ever played ..period" Another one said "this CP5 is simply the best thing I've heard on a board"

Looks like Yamaha has a winner , I thought they sounded good ... its nice to see others agreeing with me.


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1350957 01/16/10 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by dewster
The public promo material for this line confirms one of my worst suspicions about the AP voices / signal chain:

From Illustrated_Guide_to_the_CP1.pdf

When an acoustic piano is played live as part of a band, the sound thereof is normally picked up using a number of microphones and then mixed in order to prevent it from being drowned out by the other instruments. As part of this process, the signal from the microphones is boosted using pre-amplifiers and its frequency characteristic is adjusted using tone control in order to realize the best possible sound for the overall ensemble. For this reason, the acoustic piano voices of the CP1 feature microphone pre-amp simulators that can be used to optimize the sound in the very same way.

Next page (CFIIIS; CF 3Band, CF 2Band):

...microphone pre-amps featuring two- or three-band tone control and perfectly tuned to the characteristics of the CFIIIS have also been included to complete the sound of this remarkable instrument.

Next page (S6B; S6 3Band, S6 2Band):

In combination with this piano voice, furthermore, you can also use a microphone pre-amp unit with two- or three-band tone control perfectly tuned to the S6B sound.


Come and see our brand new 2 and 3 band preamp tone controls! "Perfectly tuned" (WTF?) to the piano sample no less! Our engineers finally figure out how to independently adjust bass, midrange, and treble! Or just bass and treble, if you prefer that instead.

This is some of the most shamelessly empty hype I've seen lately. Quite frankly, I'm shocked to see a company like Yamaha sink this low - it makes me fundamentally question the intelligence of their management.

I've just read the English manual, and I think your analyzation is spot on. Basically, for AP sounds, except for bass, midrange and treble adjustments, the CP1 does not seem to be any better than the CP5. The CP50 lacks the S6 sounds and the "VCM Compressor 376", which the CP1 seems to use for many AP sounds. Not sure exactly what purpose the compressor has. But IIRC Dr Popper liked the "Lush Piano" sound best and that one does not use the compressor. So the Lush Piano sound should be identical between CP1 and CP50. Unless, of course, the CP50 has a cut down sample size. But I kind of doubt that...

For me this is good news, because it means that the CP5 (and also the CP50) should sound just as good as the CP1 for AP. The CP1 has just a few more controls/variations.

For EPs, however, I see a noticeable advantage for the CP1. The speaker simulation seems to be used by default for most EPs. And the DX7 sounds being SCM should also be an advantage. I don't really know, though, how much difference these theoretical advantages make to the final sound quality.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
madshi #1350967 01/16/10 09:51 AM
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[quote=madshi The CP50 lacks the S6 sounds and the "VCM Compressor 376", which the CP1 seems to use for many AP sounds. Not sure exactly what purpose the compressor has. [/quote]

The compressor is essential when playing in a band situation and in the studio to make the piano voice cut through and to be placed correctly in the mix. A soundman like me will add compressor to the piano voice at the mixing table.
It can also be used to give flavor to the sound. smile


Peace

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