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#2131855 - 08/12/13 02:13 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Mark Polishook]  
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Originally Posted by Mark Polishook
CharlesLang ... could you possibly post details about how you mike your piano. The sound is very good and coming across very clearly. I know there are others on this forum who can give general advice about piano miking ... would be interested to hear ..


Thanks. I have used mostly condensers, large, medium and small diaphragm. I pretty much always have two over the strings. These days I usually put the capsules pointing straight down toward the soundboard. They are positioned just a little beyond the dampers, and maybe four inches or so above the soundboard (one in the treble region and one in the bass region). I've also introduced lately a third mic, a non-condenser, dynamic mic that gets more clarity on the attack part of the tone (better transients).

The cover of the Dave Frank vamp is a slightly older video and I don't remember exactly what arrangement I was using, unfortunately. Of the two videos I posted, I hope the "Hand-wavy" video has slightly better sound, since I was using more expensive mics.

In terms of processing, I don't use equalization at all really, but sometimes use some dynamic range compression and sometimes some reverb. Lately I'm using moderate dynamic range compression on everything.


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#2131861 - 08/12/13 02:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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Originally Posted by jazzwee
Was that accurate? 3:1 Inside to outside? I'd have to listen again but I would have guessed 5:1.



Jazzwee, if you look at the excerpt - and that one excerpt only - you'll see there are 3 inside measures, 1 outside measure, and then a few other inside measure to cement the resolution. So that's where my number comes from. But because it's a number doesn't mean there's magic!

....If your ears hear 5:1, well, sure, why not? Experiment. Let your ear be the guide.

Originally Posted by jazzwee

Now with McCoy though you said he was playing Mixolydian tonality. Not reading the transcription to verify but just listening to him, I would generally say that he uses quartal tonality which would deemphasize the 3rd, instead emphasizing 4th intervals. This of course would give the chords a non-Mixolydian quality which doesn't necessarily require resolution. So perhaps that's part of the theory there. In essence, tension and release being handled in other ways like movement vs. non movement, inside vs. outside, open-playing vs. more dense, and less on harmonic progression, etc.


I took a look at what I said but I didn't use the "mixolydian" word! .... but more important is YOUR analysis here is perfectly articulated and good. So run with it!

[/quote]

Originally Posted by jazzwee

Obviously trying to pin down how resolution feels to each of us is moving target. But I think NOT thinking about resolution creates a poor solo.



But that's the nice bit about the MT excerpt - he shows how he establishes resolution. But there are other ways to go at it - including some in the Charlie Parker Omnibook (just to mention a completely different point of view).








#2131863 - 08/12/13 02:19 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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charleslang. thanks for those details. the recorded sound in your video was very very nice and for me capture the overall sound of the piano really well. is very impressive!

#2131958 - 08/12/13 05:18 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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Originally Posted by jazzwee
In essence, tension and release being handled in other ways like movement vs. non movement, inside vs. outside, open-playing vs. more dense, and less on harmonic progression, etc.

Obviously trying to pin down how resolution feels to each of us is moving target. But I think NOT thinking about resolution creates a poor solo.
...
I'm glad I'm realizing this now since the approach is totally different with a functional progression.


That seems well put.

Originally Posted by Mark Polishook
charleslang. thanks for those details. the recorded sound in your video was very very nice and for me capture the overall sound of the piano really well. is very impressive!


Thanks so so much; I invite you to subscribe to my channel on YouTube. I have another grand, a Baldwin, that I'm preparing for recording right now, and I'll be posting recordings soon.


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#2132065 - 08/12/13 10:32 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: charleslang]  
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#2132067 - 08/12/13 10:39 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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Me and Knotty were sitting in the front row at a Keith trio concert a couple of years back. He was doing an extended vamp thing, and I had an eerie experience where I felt for awhile that I could tune into his thought process. What it felt like, one, was extreme sensitivity, subtle complete concentration. His focus at that moment appeared to be all about *surprise*. Every moment he would assess what the audience would expect, and he would do something else..it was really interesting.

DF

#2132091 - 08/13/13 12:30 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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DF,

I guess that's the key right there. Knowing the moment to raise tension and to release it and make it not sound boring. Definitely more difficult than it sounds.

When I see KJ I'm also forced to be in deep concentration and then you see even the subtleties of using dynamics. Not only does he pick seemingly the right notes for the right moment but his touch and articulation are in total sync and to an amazing degree. And people wonder why some of us think he's the god of jazz piano -- well because I'm never heard anyone do the same.

Michael P -

Appreciate the ideas there. I wasn't taught before in the framework of studying transcriptions in as detailed a manner and I understand now the thought process you follow in looking for ideas. Seems like if I can work on a snippet of an idea a week, in 52 weeks, I'd be sounding different!

I was playing on the vamp concept again tonight and followed a little bit of McCoy's lead where he would release tension by just playing what sounds to be like Root-5-Root (F-C-F). So I did that and it does begin to sound like a major chord tonic. At least this is my observation from listening.

Then I noticed, at least to me, a certain feeling of release when I play the V in a dorian mode. But not as V7 but as 1-5-1 again. So in Dm it would be G-C-G. At least I'm establishing what chord movement works for me to resolve an idea. I'm sure there are other approaches, but at least I have one pattern.





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#2132132 - 08/13/13 04:41 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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Originally Posted by jazzwee


Michael P -



I answer to pretty much anything smile


Originally Posted by jazzwee



Seems like if I can work on a snippet of an idea a week, in 52 weeks, I'd be sounding different!



You got it! ... 52 ideas from major players is a lot of 1st-rate guidance ... (it works for me smile

Originally Posted by jazzwee


At least I'm establishing what chord movement works for me to resolve an idea. I'm sure there are other approaches, but at least I have one pattern.



jazzwee ... and this is TOTALLY what you want. ... establishing what works for you. with one working idea you'll find the next one ... because the one will lead to another ... and then they start to multiply smile


[/quote]

#2132152 - 08/13/13 06:21 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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Originally Posted by jazzwee
I was playing on the vamp concept again tonight and followed a little bit of McCoy's lead where he would release tension by just playing what sounds to be like Root-5-Root (F-C-F). So I did that and it does begin to sound like a major chord tonic. At least this is my observation from listening.



One thing McCoy does (and a lot of other people as well) is to superimpose a sequence on a modal vamp. Suppose it is a Cm vamp, he might play ..
Cm / Cm / Cm A7alt / D7alt G7alt /

This gives a good framework for going away from the Cm tonality and also giving a solid resolution. If you use 3 note voicings for the superimposed chords you an kind of fool the ear into thinking that the voicings are quartal and this gives a nice open feel to the harmony. (Dominant chords are hard to voice in perfect 4ths obviously). Add a variety of many different pentatonics you can play on these altered chords and there is really a lot of possibilities just from this one simple idea.
I can't remember if he does that on passion dance but it is a device he uses a lot.


#2132264 - 08/13/13 11:59 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Mark Polishook]  
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Mark, so sorry to invent a name for you! Senior moment. But we can be even now because below is where you said Mixolydian smile

Originally Posted by Mark Polishook

MT begins the phrase so it's grounded over F7 or mixolydian or whatever anyone wants to call it.
Mark



I have a jazz trio gig on Thursday where I'm planning on doing Passion Dance (first time) and Afro Blue (again) to see if I learned anything about vamps.






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#2132266 - 08/13/13 12:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]  
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Originally Posted by beeboss
Originally Posted by jazzwee
I was playing on the vamp concept again tonight and followed a little bit of McCoy's lead where he would release tension by just playing what sounds to be like Root-5-Root (F-C-F). So I did that and it does begin to sound like a major chord tonic. At least this is my observation from listening.



One thing McCoy does (and a lot of other people as well) is to superimpose a sequence on a modal vamp. Suppose it is a Cm vamp, he might play ..
Cm / Cm / Cm A7alt / D7alt G7alt /

This gives a good framework for going away from the Cm tonality and also giving a solid resolution. If you use 3 note voicings for the superimposed chords you an kind of fool the ear into thinking that the voicings are quartal and this gives a nice open feel to the harmony. (Dominant chords are hard to voice in perfect 4ths obviously). Add a variety of many different pentatonics you can play on these altered chords and there is really a lot of possibilities just from this one simple idea.
I can't remember if he does that on passion dance but it is a device he uses a lot.



Cool! Helpful tip!


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#2132338 - 08/13/13 01:51 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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Originally Posted by jazzwee
Mark, so sorry to invent a name for you! Senior moment. But we can be even now because below is where you said Mixolydian smile

Originally Posted by Mark Polishook

MT begins the phrase so it's grounded over F7 or mixolydian or whatever anyone wants to call it.
Mark



I have a jazz trio gig on Thursday where I'm planning on doing Passion Dance (first time) and Afro Blue (again) to see if I learned anything about vamps.






Piano bass drums?
I hope you record. Have fun!

#2132367 - 08/13/13 02:39 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]  
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Originally Posted by knotty


Piano bass drums?
I hope you record. Have fun!


Thanks Knots.

Well there's a singer/percussionist too. So half the tunes are vocals.

I suppose I should be intimidated by being a trio but lately I've been taking most of the load anyway. At our last couple of gigs, the Sax player screwed up or didn't know half the tunes and neither I nor the audience missed anything.

But they will miss that sax player for sure. Won't be back! (not my regular).



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#2132407 - 08/13/13 04:03 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]  
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Originally Posted by knotty
Originally Posted by jazzwee
Mark, so sorry to invent a name for you! Senior moment. But we can be even now because below is where you said Mixolydian smile

Originally Posted by Mark Polishook

MT begins the phrase so it's grounded over F7 or mixolydian or whatever anyone wants to call it.
Mark



Yikes! It's there.#_)$#)#($*_#($* Sorry Jazzwee! And thank you Knotty for gleefully confirming that, yes, it is there smile

If I could rewrite I'd emphasis the "whatever anyone wants to call it" part of the sentence - I was trying to de-emphasize the mixolydian puddle. But Senior Moment had other plans ... smile










#2132453 - 08/13/13 06:26 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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In the context of vamp tension and release, clearly that bass player would have to be listening. Maybe I'd be suggesting a major chord and he'd be outlining a Mixolydian smile

Fortunately my bass player has big ears.

When we were playing Afro Blue, I think both us realized that we were actually following each other both rhythmically and harmonically. Cool when that happens. Especially on something as unpredictable as a vamp.





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#2132602 - 08/14/13 01:56 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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Amazing version of Footprints by Herbie. He's pretty much treating the whole Footprints changes as a vamp and he's doing the McCoy Tyner changing fourths thing. I think I'm going to copy some of this.

Long ago, I observe this and I don't really know what's going on. But it's coming and lots of similarities to Passion Dance vamp playing, etc.

I've been practicing like this now where I just keep moving the chords around. Feels like I'm being freed.


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#2132761 - 08/14/13 10:36 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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Heard omw to work this am.
Check kjs lifeline for a minor vamp.

#2132824 - 08/14/13 12:47 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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There he is.
[video:youtube]7BE46tyj2R4[/video]


#2132825 - 08/14/13 12:52 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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For the modal vamp type of playing, Dave's got a nice beginner type class here:

[video:youtube]SjJVSQz1eK4[/video]

One of the tricks to make it work is to pick a cool LH pattern that is very open. Sticking to 1 5 7, or 1-5-3
That gives plenty of options for creating tension and release solely with modes.


#2132860 - 08/14/13 02:57 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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Sorry, this is one of those times when I say Herbie and McCoy sounded MUCH better than KJ. This KJ vamp lacked tension. I felt like I was listening to pop music.



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#2132894 - 08/14/13 04:43 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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Originally Posted by jazzwee
Sorry, this is one of those times when I say Herbie and McCoy sounded MUCH better than KJ. This KJ vamp lacked tension. I felt like I was listening to pop music.
Pop music? Come on, this is a great vamp/tune/improv, it's just different from the others, which I feel can be a bit contrived. Three ways of playing modal (playing Mixolydian/quartal, playing harmonically inside-outside, playing and staying within the mode) . . what more can one ask for? smile

Last edited by chrisbell; 08/14/13 04:48 PM.
#2132920 - 08/14/13 05:41 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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Herbie contrived? HERBIE? H-E-R-B-I-E????????????? laugh

BTW - It was Herbie that got me into Jazz (in case you're wondering). wink

I remember going to to my first jazz teacher saying: I want to learn to play Maiden Voyage. And he responded: "HA HA HA HA! That will take a very long time. Let's do some blues...".

Anyway, I love KJ's ECM Standards but some new stuff and his solo stuff...I get bored. He did a major vamp the last time I saw him. Wasn't my fav. Sounded New Age (Einaudi like?). Ok throw the tomatoes at me now since i know there's some devoted KJ fans here.

EDIT - I should probably change my avatar to Herbie now...

Last edited by jazzwee; 08/14/13 05:42 PM.

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#2132971 - 08/14/13 08:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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ah Herbie vs Jarrett!! I had a chance to see Herbie at the jazz festival in my city this year, instead I saw Esperanza Spalding.

Jarrett is playing at the Seattle Earshot festival in Oct, I am really considering buying tix and going down to watch it. It's about a 2 hour drive from me. Probably only chance I'll see him as most of his West coast gigs are down in California. Anyone else in?!

#2133022 - 08/14/13 09:00 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: The Wind]  
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If anyone ever has the opportunity to see Keith live, GO!!! It's the most incredible thing I've ever seen, utterly beyond description.

DF

Last edited by Dfrank; 08/14/13 09:00 PM.
#2133024 - 08/14/13 09:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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Well, Cirque de Soliel was pretty far out too..

#2133126 - 08/15/13 12:58 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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I love going to KJ's trio concerts. I bought Tix to his solo concert once but I forgot about it until the next day! Anyway, it was one of those concerts where he got mad at the audience for coughing and turned everyone off. So perhaps I didn't miss anything.

So I was hesitant to go to the trio concert and then I realized that in a trio, he's not that sensitive to the coughing.

I'm glad that Herbie doesn't sound like KJ and KJ doesn't sound like Chick. We'd get bored if they all sounded the same.


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#2133153 - 08/15/13 03:34 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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Originally Posted by jazzwee
I'm glad that Herbie doesn't sound like KJ and KJ doesn't sound like Chick. We'd get bored if they all sounded the same.
I don't know about that . . it would have saved me a lot of money . . . smile

#2133157 - 08/15/13 03:49 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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Originally Posted by jazzwee
Anyway, I love KJ's ECM Standards but some new stuff and his solo stuff...I get bored.
You need to check out the earlier stuff: Fort Yawuh, Treasure Island, Expectations, Death and the Flower, Facing You, or even Spirits and Book of Ways.
And just for the record; no I don't think that Herbie is contrived - just some times like most post-80's recordings. All 50's, 60's and 70's (and of course Rockit) features some great playing. But hey whom am I to to give critique . . . I don't even like the Harmonic Minor scale! smile

#2133224 - 08/15/13 08:03 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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Speaking of great players, last night I listened on Spotify to the Piano Jazz episode with Brad Mehldau. It features a very young Mehldau just before his second CD came out. The playing is sensational. What is particularly impressive is how well Mehldau adapts when playing with McPartland. Its some of her best duos. You don't get much technical insight from Mehldau, but you learn a lot about him as a person. If you don't subscribe to Spotify, hopefully it's available somewhere else on line.

#2133266 - 08/15/13 09:18 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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Jjo,

many of these can be downloaded from the NPR website directly. Some of these are FABULOUS.

http://www.npr.org/templates/archives/archive.php?thingId=15773266

The one with Bill Evans is absolutely spectacular. Bill explains his approach to tunes. He is so particular. He demonstrate how to arrange something such as "The Touch of your lips" and goes into complete wilderness. You can hear Mary go "oh wow" in the background.

There are dozens of these.
Oscar's is great too, he fits in on the duo totally perfect. He was such a great guy.

I've listen to a lot of KJ for quite a bit of time. I bought my first album as a teenager completely randomly because it had 3 "treble clef" on the cover, and that was supposed to be good. He's the one who forced me to really start playing. I have yet to find him boring, whether solo or trio. He is one of those guys who just keeps getting better and better.
His Koln Concert is some of the best stuff ever, but the Carnegie Hall solo piano is on a different level.
Same goes for trio. The concert Dave and I saw last year was absolutely mind blowing. On many levels.

Like my buddy said, stranded on an island with nothing but KJ (and a decent tuned piano...), I'd be pretty much fine.



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New Topics - Multiple Forums
Arturia V2 Piano
by Beakybird. 12/16/17 08:42 PM
Connect Roland FP-30 to iPad?
by newbert. 12/16/17 05:16 PM
Two-layer Steinway Damper Guide Bushings
by RestorerPhil. 12/16/17 04:34 PM
Broken pedal
by PhilipInChina. 12/16/17 04:04 PM
stiff wrists
by elkabungo. 12/16/17 03:54 PM
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