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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1347285 01/12/10 12:20 AM
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They come from the same capture ... but they sound different for reasons you don't seem to believe ;-)


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dr Popper #1347320 01/12/10 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper
They come from the same capture ... but they sound different for reasons you don't seem to believe ;-)


This might be true. People get all hung up about the samples and how many layers. You can do a pretty simple experiment to show how important the playback can be. Just use a modern sophisticated sampler software and any instrument sample you like. One example of a software sampler is Kontakt 4 from Native Instruments. It is I'm sure the number one most commonly used sampler. Apple's EXS24 is also well used. Both of these and others like them allow great control over the sound of sample playback. Try it, connect the sampler to your MIDI keyboard and play a few notes, turn one of the virtual knobs and play again. You can do a lot to the sound. Notice that Yamaha exposes some of this to the user with buttons for "bright" and "mellow". The same sample set is used for either setting. I'm sure these buttons change parameters in the sampler playback engine. I think the keyboard setting for "hard" or "soft" works the same way. Point is the samples are only a foundation and framework, not the final sound you hear. I think NI has a "lite" version that's free. It don't take long, playing with this to see that much of the art is in the playback of the samples

I'm sure Yamaha uses techniques like what are available in common samplers to play the samples. Things like time variant filter parameters and real time envelope generators, sample looping and pitch bending. How else do they get such good sound in the P85 with just one layer.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
ChrisA #1347382 01/12/10 04:00 AM
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Indeed they do I have a very nice s700 patch in my motif XS and S90XS which I made myself using the original waveforms and the ARX Rhodes on my Fantom G8 is a very different patch to the standard but it uses the same original waveform. If you use logic and the EXS24 you can do a lot with samples and its not exactly difficult. I do not believe that given enough time and effort that a instrument exists on the planet I couldn't emulate in the studio to the point nobody could tell. That said ... I've just bought a Rhodes ...because I'm a romantic cool


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Moose #1347384 01/12/10 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Moose
This is A LOT of info to help you all choosing one of these amazing instruments

Unfortunately, it doesn't help at all. We've already known most (all?) of that for weeks.

I appreciate you trying to explain your reasoning for choosing the CP1 over the CP5. However, what I *really* wanted to hear is your subjective impression about how the CP1 sound compares to the CP5 sound. All you've listed in your post are some technical specs, most of which we already knew. Basically, reading your post contains no information which you've collected while actually playing the CP1 vs. CP5! What we all REALLY wanted to hear, is not some technical specs, but your subjective comparison of how the CP1/5/50 actually sound in real life. Do the AP sounds in the CP1 really sound noticeably better than those in the CP5? Do the EP sounds sound noticeably better? Do the DX7 sounds sound noticeably better? If so, in what way exactly? I want your subjective description of what you experienced when playing the CP1 vs. CP5. I'm not interested in a comparison of technical specs. Any guy looking at the spec sheets can do that (myself included). You are one out of two people who actually played the CP1 vs. CP5. So please make use of that experience in your posts.

Thanks!

Let me repost Dr Popper's preview, to give you an impression about what kind of report I'd like to get from you, too:

Quote
Ok I am back from the demo with the CP1 (and the CP5, CP50) and although i only had about 10 mins with each board and couldn't record any samples I can offer a opinion of sorts.
1) Keyboard ... its very good in fact close your eyes and you simply wouldn't be able to tell. I strongly suspect its the same or a very similar keyboard that's used in the Aavant Grand series and along the same lines as the V-Piano keyboard. Both the CP1 and CP5 have this same keyboard and its good. The CP50 has a different keyboard same as the S90XS I think and its very good but not quite like the others that really do feel authentic.
2) AP sounds ...the CP1 has 2 each of the SCM patches from the S6 and CFIII grands the CP5 has one of each. In AP (S6b -1) the sound was excellent noticeably better then my S90Xs which has the same S6 patch (a normal sample not the SCM) The Yamaha tech informed me that SCM is not sampling or modeling but rather a combination taking the best of each. The S6B SCM (1) on the CP1 was noticeably brighter then the CP5 in the mid-range but the 2nd S6 sample was a softer more traditional Yamaha sound. In the short time I had to play the boards I did not notice any obvious stretching or looping even when I tried however to my ear there are still some artifacts in the decay but its doubtful you would describe them as looping its a more acoustic artifact you sometimes hear on older pianos and I cannot even be sure I didn't imagine it. It is not unpleasant or noticeable. The CP1 sounded better and more rounded in both CFIII patches then the CP5 did in its one CFIII patch but both were more then acceptable (to my ear) and sounded better then the Advent Grand we played as well. Both piano's I felt were a improvement on the already excellent S90XS S6 based AP as was the CP50 which while offering the same keyboard as the S90XS was a nicer AP sound.
3)The pick of the bunch for me was the CP5 which has really nice strings and Clav's as well as some of the better EP's from the CP1 plus normal Yamaha range ( a lot of my S90XS's sounds were there). The CP1 has amazing EP's ...great Rhodes (5 of them !) Controls look good for stage use and the CP1 offers almost infinite adjustment similar to the V-Piano. The CP5 appears to offer similar but less intricate adjustment. I didn't get into the tech stuff much more then that. I can't help feel I personally would be happy with either but I'm not as picky as some ;-)

All three of these cases are well built and would take punishment on the road but the CP1 and to only a slightly lesser extent the CP5 are simply beautiful too ...very retro...very slick looking boards. I'm not sold on the displays but they are easy to read however to my eye while looking retro also look slightly "cheap" and don't really fit with the nice polished buttons.

In conclusion ... It sounds promising but I'm not singing its praises to the really picky bunch in here just yet. I'd like to spend a few hours alone with each of them before I'd do that. But from what I heard today I'm encouraged.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
ChrisA #1347788 01/12/10 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisA
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
They come from the same capture ... but they sound different for reasons you don't seem to believe ;-)

Point is the samples are only a foundation and framework, not the final sound you hear. I think NI has a "lite" version that's free. It don't take long, playing with this to see that much of the art is in the playback of the samples

Maybe my expectations are completely unrealistic, but when three keyboards are in the same line, are released at the same time, and are marketed as very clear sets and subsets of each other - then except for things like polyphony limits and differences in the effects chain - I expect identically named patches to be pretty much identical across all units.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1347822 01/12/10 05:01 PM
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$6000 is not equal to $1800.
If it were, $6000 would be equal to $1800.

Last edited by theJourney; 01/12/10 05:02 PM.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
theJourney #1347880 01/12/10 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by theJourney
$6000 is not equal to $1800.
If it were, $6000 would be equal to $1800.

In a market situation, price is set to maximize profit. It isn't necessarily related to the manufacturing cost. Though the wooden keys and that glowing logo undoubtedly are undoubtedly somewhat pricey items to add to a keyboard.

Look at Cassette vs. CD, or VHS vs. DVD. Tapes are more expensive to manufacture, both in materials and time, but the higher fidelity and convenience of digital optical disks command a higher purchase price, even though they are very economically just stamped out.

Yamaha is charging a premium for the more extensive feature set, partly to recoup the development NRE, and partly because they know they can as they have something of a monopoly on this unique and interesting DP.

Does it cost more than three times the CP50 to manufacture the CP1? I very much doubt it.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1348019 01/12/10 08:41 PM
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"Does it cost more than three times the CP50 to manufacture the CP1? I very much doubt it."

not if you take patents into account. If Yamaha has to add an extra technology, a small chip, to the instrument, and there's a separate patent on this chip - here comes the 3x price tag. Nothing Yamaha could do.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
alekkh #1348041 01/12/10 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by alekkh
"Does it cost more than three times the CP50 to manufacture the CP1? I very much doubt it."

not if you take patents into account. If Yamaha has to add an extra technology, a small chip, to the instrument, and there's a separate patent on this chip - here comes the 3x price tag. Nothing Yamaha could do.

Yamaha most likely owns the patents on the products they build. They're the 500lb gorilla in the DP room.

Also, when you buy an IC you pay for the patent when you buy the chip (it is amortized in the price).

In conclusion, they're using the same technology in all three, so there should be no price differential.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1348052 01/12/10 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster
[quote=theJourney]



Does it cost more than three times the CP50 to manufacture the CP1? I very much doubt it.


No way it would cost 3 times as much to make the CP1. I'd suggest that Yamaha has priced and set up the three models to directly compete with what Roland, Korg, Nord and Kruzweil offer.

They are just being a business and selling for what they think they can get.
Its got nothing to do with what it costs them to make it.
I'd be surprised if the CP1 cost anything more then the CP5 to make.



"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dr Popper #1348197 01/13/10 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper
No way it would cost 3 times as much to make the CP1. I'd suggest that Yamaha has priced and set up the three models to directly compete with what Roland, Korg, Nord and Kruzweil offer.
They are just being a business and selling for what they think they can get.

I agree. It's what I would consider to be price fixing, but the accepted sort that goes on with modern capitalism.

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Its got nothing to do with what it costs them to make it.
I'd be surprised if the CP1 cost anything more then the CP5 to make.

That glowing logo is $25 easy. It's pretty , but I for one don't want to pay for it.

I really do wish they had thrown the S6 sample in the CP50 though.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Keron #1348200 01/13/10 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Keron
I saw a funny software to help people learn music before. Its name is pianoeasy.

Welcome to my ignore list.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Keron #1348236 01/13/10 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Keron
I saw a funny software to help people learn music before. Its name is pianoeasy.




SPAM SPAM SPAM !


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1348330 01/13/10 05:01 AM
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I didn't say anything about manufacturing cost.

In a lineup of a family of three instruments ranging from $1800 to $6000, it is unreasonable and unrealistic to expect that the $1800 instrument will offer the same feature set, value or user utility as the $6000 instrument.

Yamaha is smart, they introduce a new top of the line instrument that exudes Yamaha-ness from the tone of their top acoustic and vintage electronic instruments to the branding of their black box technology to literally putting a halo around their audience facing brand name with a very high, but competitive top of line market price.

Unlike Roland, who may be losing more business than they are gaining by not having a cheaper alternative or alternatives to their VPiano sharing the core technology, Yamaha has a way to capture sales for Yamaha. What is important in pricing policy is to make a determination of what the market will bear and who will pay for what. In fact, you might say that the demand which Roland has postponed this year ("I want a VPiano but not until they come in under $2000 and I would really like more non-piano tones") might now quite easily be harvested by Yamaha.




Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
theJourney #1348344 01/13/10 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by theJourney
you might say that the demand which Roland has postponed this year ("I want a VPiano but not until they come in under $2000 and I would really like more non-piano tones") might now quite easily be harvested by Yamaha.

How about those (like me) who want the top model, but some non-piano tones, too? Yamaha seems to have forgotten about those...

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
madshi #1348358 01/13/10 07:06 AM
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Rumours of new models (tones) for the V-Piano this year....

Steve


C. Bechstein Model B | Roland RD-1000 |
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
EssBrace #1348362 01/13/10 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Rumours of new models (tones) for the V-Piano this year....

Steve


But first, Roland, please fix the mids of the existing two models.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
madshi #1348376 01/13/10 08:21 AM
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There is no law against buying multiple instruments. Many of us here own multiple instruments and our collections are often growing rather than shrinking. smile

The CP-1 seems to me to be positioned against the VPiano while the CP-5 is more of a RD700GX. At least the CP-5 has the same keybed as the CP-1...

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
theJourney #1348386 01/13/10 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by theJourney
There is no law against buying multiple instruments. Many of us here own multiple instruments and our collections are often growing rather than shrinking. smile

.


your telling me ... I have no fewer then 31 keyboards ....ridiculous


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dr Popper #1348388 01/13/10 08:40 AM
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Wow. This deserves its own thread. I wouldn't be surprised if you won the "How many keyboards do you have in your collection?" thread!

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