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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1346851 01/11/10 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster
I'm a very interested consumer who can't even get the time of day out of Yamaha.


Nah...they ain't gonna tell you anything on a public forum.

You'll just have to wait like the rest of the interested consumers and try one.

Are you seriously considering getting one? If so, which model?

I heard the CP-1 is a real gem. The CF-III sample/model is supposedly awesome.

Be patient...they'll no doubt sell all they can make.

Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
snazzyplayer #1346871 01/11/10 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Nah...they ain't gonna tell you anything on a public forum.

All I want to know is if the CFIII patch is the same across models. That doesn't seem like proprietary information at all.

Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
You'll just have to wait like the rest of the interested consumers and try one.

I fully intend to try one. But how many will I have to try to know which one I should buy in order to get a good CFIII sample? I'd have to have all three in a quiet room with a MIDI sequencer to see if the patches are identical enough, almost no chance of that. heck just finding ONE in a noisy Sam Ash / Guitar Center in operating condition (plugged in, etc) will be a stretch. Yamaha seems to be going out of their way to make my shopping experience something of a nightmare.

On the other hand, if I can find the CP1 somewhere (fat chance) and the CFIII sounds lame on it, I guess I can scratch this whole line off the list and go back to the waiting game.

Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Are you seriously considering getting one? If so, which model?

I have my eye on the CP50 due to the plastic keys, lighter weight, lower cost, and extra sounds (compared to the CP1). I don't really need the EPs, but do need church/chapel organs & strings & such - I hope there are some in there.

Last edited by dewster; 01/11/10 05:10 PM.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1346909 01/11/10 05:17 PM
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You know, I'm rather shocked that Yamaha publishes the MIDI implementation for their keyboards.

They "give away" more info in there than you would ever be able to pry out of any of their employees in a million years.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1346929 01/11/10 05:32 PM
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Yes, they are rather free with all that info...must be because people rarely use MIDI anymore wink.

I'm in no hurry...I'll pick up one of the next generation Avant Grands when they come out...made nearly enough selling mine to buy a CP-1, although, like you, I'd like to have more than just piano sounds (one of my only beefs with the AG) so I might be more tempted by the CP-5.

I seriously doubt if the CF-III sample is the same for all models...that would be against the rules.

Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
snazzyplayer #1346973 01/11/10 06:22 PM
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Ok, here goes.

Please, all of you, bear in mind timezones differ, the times you guys are in here, I'm trying to catch some sleep, ok?

Impatience is one, but please, let's stay reasonable. Dewster, please, stop drinking so much coffee ;-)

A few things I can tell you.

NO, CFIII is ofcourse not the same for CP1/5/50.

Main difference is the amount of blocks the "SCM" is based on, I'll give you the figures:
CP1: Spectral Component Modeling System based on 5 system blocks: piano (AP, EP, FM), pre-amp, modulation effect, power amplifier/compression, speaker simulator.
CP5: SCMS based on 4 system blocks: piano (AP, EP), Pre-amp, mod. effect, power amp./compression
CP50: SCMS based on 3 system blocks: piano (AP, EP), pre-amp, mod. effect.

Other specs I can give you, and next to previous specs these explain why I chose for the CP1

CP1: Piano types (17) have unique sound enhancement: damper resonance, hammer stiffness, striking position,...
A real FM engine is used for DX piano
5 band master EQ

This is A LOT of info to help you all choosing one of these amazing instruments, but please, if you can, try them. Might as well be that you prefer CP5 better, or the CP50... As the French say: Les goûts et les couleurs ne se discutent pas.

P



Employed by Yamaha Europe. Same deal, all my posts are personal opinions, not company opinions!
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Moose #1347006 01/11/10 06:48 PM
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Don't mind Dewster he's a bit manic but we still love him ;-)


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Moose #1347022 01/11/10 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Moose
NO, CFIII is ofcourse not the same for CP1/5/50.

Main difference is the amount of blocks the "SCM" is based on, I'll give you the figures:
CP1: Spectral Component Modeling System based on 5 system blocks: piano (AP, EP, FM), pre-amp, modulation effect, power amplifier/compression, speaker simulator.
CP5: SCMS based on 4 system blocks: piano (AP, EP), Pre-amp, mod. effect, power amp./compression
CP50: SCMS based on 3 system blocks: piano (AP, EP), pre-amp, mod. effect.

OK, and thanks, but like I said I really don't care about pre-amp (EQ), modulation effect, power amplifier/compression, or speaker simulator for the CFIII. Except for some mild EQ, virtually no one is interested in effects on a grand piano sample.

Originally Posted by Moose
CP1: Piano types (17) have unique sound enhancement: damper resonance, hammer stiffness, striking position,...

Yes, but all I care about is how this relates to the CFIII sample. From the MIDI implementation for the CP1 I see decay & release time, key-off level, damper resonance level, and five levels of hammer stiffness. What parameters of those I just listed are in the CP50?

Originally Posted by Moose
A real FM engine is used for DX piano

No disrespect, but one wouldn't know it from the skimpy MIDI implementation. When I hear DX7 I think of all the DX7 patches I might want to use. Which I evidently can't use on the CP1.

Originally Posted by Moose
This is A LOT of info to help you all choosing one of these amazing instruments, but please, if you can, try them. Might as well be that you prefer CP5 better, or the CP50... As the French say: Les goûts et les couleurs ne se discutent pas.

I don't want the tastes or colors to describe themselves, I just want to know if the fundamental CFIII sample in the CP1 is the same as in the CP50. Forget about the effects chain.

Here it is in French: Je veux savoir juste si l'échantillon fondamental de CFIII dans le CP1 est le même comme dans le CP50.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1347041 01/11/10 07:23 PM
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Ok I think your approaching this from the wrong angle completely ...

The sound produced by ANY keyboard is the SUM OF ITS PARTS and that means sample PLUS effects chain. Without the effects chain you are not going to hear anything like a reasonable piano sound.



"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dr Popper #1347051 01/11/10 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Ok I think your approaching this from the wrong angle completely ...

The sound produced by ANY keyboard is the SUM OF ITS PARTS and that means sample PLUS effects chain. Without the effects chain you are not going to hear anything like a reasonable piano sound.

If you're talking EPs, sure, absolutely.

But when it comes to grand pianos, I have no interest in amp simulators, triggered wah, etc. Mild EQ (and perhaps some mild compression in a live combo situation) is as far as I would go. And that can easily be outboard, so I almost don't care if it is in my DP or not.

The sample is the thing, if that isn't good enough then nothing else matters. And we have never, ever had a good enough grand piano sample in a DP (IMO).

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dr Popper #1347056 01/11/10 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Don't mind Dewster he's a bit manic but we still love him ;-)

All I desire is some very mild technical assistance in spending $1700 (or more) of my hard earned money on a product from Yamaha. Is that seriously too much to ask? I'm not being belligerent, I'm being responsible about a possible major purchase.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1347089 01/11/10 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster

If you're talking EPs, sure, absolutely.

But when it comes to grand pianos, I have no interest in amp simulators, triggered wah, etc. Mild EQ (and perhaps some mild compression in a live combo situation) is as far as I would go. And that can easily be outboard, so I almost don't care if it is in my DP or not.

The sample is the thing, if that isn't good enough then nothing else matters. And we have never, ever had a good enough grand piano sample in a DP (IMO).


If its a EP playing a AP patch its NOT JUST the sample its the sample PLUS effects that makes the AP sound... we are not talking about mikeing up a AP then adding effects. We are making a AP "like" sound from a EP and that is a process that requires a lot more then a basic sample. The CP1/5/50 sound slightly different to each other because of the different processing ...the basic samples are exactly the same in each one. The original piano sample is only the base on which KB's build their sound.



"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1347094 01/11/10 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Don't mind Dewster he's a bit manic but we still love him ;-)

All I desire is some very mild technical assistance in spending $1700 (or more) of my hard earned money on a product from Yamaha. Is that seriously too much to ask? I'm not being belligerent, I'm being responsible about a possible major purchase.


No I don't think your asking too much at all ( I did say we still love you didn't I ?) in fact its prudent to invest time in research before making a purchase decision but I do think your placing too much emphasis on the samples and not enough on the sound. You have to wait to play it yourself and only then will you be able to have the knowledge that allows you to make the decision to pull the trigger and buy it or not. The only way your going to know is to hear it live yourself.


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1347112 01/11/10 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster

OK, here's the thing. Many of us here are mainly interested in the CFIII patch (and to a lesser degree the S6 patch).


I'm certainly interested in the S6 piano, and hope it is treated as wonderfully as the CFIII piano.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Moose #1347114 01/11/10 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Moose

NO, CFIII is ofcourse not the same for CP1/5/50.


Thank you. Does the same apply to the S6?

Lawrence

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dr Popper #1347117 01/11/10 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper
If its a EP playing a AP patch its NOT JUST the sample its the sample PLUS effects that makes the AP sound... we are not talking about mikeing up a AP then adding effects. We are making a AP "like" sound from a EP and that is a process that requires a lot more then a basic sample. The CP1/5/50 sound slightly different to each other because of the different processing ...the basic samples are exactly the same in each one. The original piano sample is only the base on which KB's build their sound.

OK, let's synchronize our terminology:

AP = Acoustic piano (a grand piano usually)
EP = Electric piano (Wurlitzer, Rhodes, DX7, etc.)
DP = Digital piano (something with weighted keys that contains AP and usually EP samples)

So, when you say "If its a EP playing a AP patch" I'm completely lost. When you say "EP" do you mean "DP" or synthesizer?

EPs and EP sample sets definitely do need a more complex effects chain. Outside of a bit of EQ and reverb, APs and AP sample sets generally need nothing (IMO).

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1347120 01/11/10 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I'm certainly interested in the S6 piano, and hope it is treated as wonderfully as the CFIII piano.

Since the S6 isn't in the CP50 (and I really wish it were) I'm somewhat less interested in it.


Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dr Popper #1347124 01/11/10 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper
I do think your placing too much emphasis on the samples and not enough on the sound.

If the sample doesn't fit, you must acquit!

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1347143 01/11/10 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster

All I desire is some very mild technical assistance


I doubt you will find many people who know the answers. Part of rolling out a new product is training the sails and support people. I doubt that is yet done. And then the Yamaha sales reps, after they do the "CP class" will have to talk to the people in the retail stores and explain the new products. Even then I doubt any real technical details will ever be available.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1347240 01/11/10 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted by Moose

NO, CFIII is ofcourse not the same for CP1/5/50.


Thank you. Does the same apply to the S6?

Lawrence



It applies to all patches the samples are the same but the processing is different.


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dr Popper #1347259 01/11/10 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted by Moose

NO, CFIII is ofcourse not the same for CP1/5/50.


Thank you. Does the same apply to the S6?

Lawrence



It applies to all patches the samples are the same but the processing is different.

If I've got this straight, one of you is saying the basic AP (CFIII & S6) samples are the same across the line, the other is saying they aren't. Could you work this out amongst yourselves and get back to us?

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