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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1343864 01/08/10 11:53 AM
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I'm noticing a correlation in the promo material.

From the promo material I linked to, they show a piano block as a container for "Piano type" and "Pre-Amplifer".

From the table mentioned earlier, the CP1 has the number two in the "SCM Piano Blocks <Piano sounds>" in the CFIIIS column.

In the AP sound descriptions, the subtitle for CFIIIS is "CF 3Band, CF 2Band".

I think the only difference between these two AP patches in the CP1 is the preamp block, which contains the magic tone controls. In other words, the sample is the same, but the preamp is either 2 or 3 band.

I would guess (and am hoping, actually) that the CFIIIS sample in the CP50 is one or the other (2 or 3 band preamp, I don't really care which) but otherwise the same as in the CP1.

Why are simple tone controls being given the lofty status as sole differentiator between entire AP patches?

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1343888 01/08/10 12:28 PM
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I wouldn't call them simple tone controls ....
Your just going to have to wait to play these boards...


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dr Popper #1344015 01/08/10 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper
I wouldn't call them simple tone controls ....

Please don't think that I'm trying to be accusatory, but did you play with the tone controls at all? If they are more than simple tone controls I'm all ears. I mean, you're saying they're not, what information do you have that makes you say that?

Last edited by dewster; 01/08/10 03:29 PM.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1344131 01/08/10 06:02 PM
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For those of you are hungry for more info on the CP1.
There are some videos up on Keyboard Magazine's site.

http://www.keyboardmag.com/article/yamaha-cp-1-stage/December-2009/105233

There are a few things about this instrument that are immediately appealing for the gigging keyboard player/pianist even before playing it.

1. The focus of this instrument is on bread and butter sounds that we call up over and over again. It's nice to see Yamaha blow their own horn a bit in the sound set, as the CP70/80 and the DX7's electric pianos do indeed deserve a place along side the Rhodes (MkI and beyond, modded or otherwise) and Wurlitzer type keyboards. The S6B and CFIIIS are instruments worthy of sampling (although since Yamaha owns Bosendorfer, it would be nice to start seeing something develop from that acquisition). They certainly appear to have kicked it up a notch with the wooden keys and new action. Regardless of what is being done through samples or modeling, I am sure we can all agree that musicality is most important. How does it actually sound and play. We shall see.

2. The focus on signal path shows that Yamaha has been paying attention to what electromechanical players actually do. Preamp mods, fx inserts, tube amps, and reverb/echo fx are all a part of the culture. Tweaking these settings with knobs is the method of choice. Getting away from excessively deep hierarchies when tweaking parameters is a must for many players. I dare say that turning a knob to get more or less distortion just feels good. These days instruments are by and large a PC in a box anyway, so the key to continuing to make hardware relevant is in the design and user interface. Nord knows this, and apparently Korg has an inkling too as their SV-1 suggests.

3. I think the CP1,5,50 will compete with the SV-1 and the both of them clearly are making a play for Nord's business. For those that like the Nord Electro, I would argue that although the sound set is quite nice, and their user interface for the organ model is inventive (and the light weight is nice when you need to walk across Manhattan for a show) it just feels lousy to actually play for a pianist or electromechanical player. The waterfall keys are definitely for the organists, and aggressive play will knock the feather light construction right off its stand. It doesn't necessarily sound toy-like, but it sure feels it. The Nord stage is a pricey red beast, feature-filled to say the least and they are working on a Nord Piano 88. I have to imagine neither of these are aesthetically appealing to most here at pianoworldforums. But perhaps how they sound makes up for it. wink I don't think we really want the CP1 to weigh as much as a CP80, but again, I am sure pianists will agree, we expect a piano to sit still regardless of what cruelty we impose upon it. Besides, if you really must drag it across town, the 5 or 50 are a bit on the lighter side perhaps.

4. Aesthetics. The tolex case with wood ends is quite sexy for the vintage market. It makes the SV-1's styling look 2000 and late. Although, the SV-1's interface in general is very appealing (knobs and buttons galore, and of course their trademark glowing tube - is it even actually in the signal path?). The CP1's audience side is looks quite fit, don't you think? It looks like they took some design pointers from their motorcycle division. Those Yamaha and CP1 logos could be on a chopper, and backlit no less! We're living in a very superficial world, my friends. Looks are everything. wink

I'll have a chance to actually sit down and play the CP1 at NAMM. I'll report back.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
ElmerJFudd #1344155 01/08/10 06:35 PM
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Attention!

Go to http://www.yamahasynth.com/downloads/manuals/ and select

Stage Pianos / CP1 / Japanese as the search criteria.


The first item it will find is CP1 DATA LIST - and it is in English!

The second item is the USER MANUAL, but it is in Japanese.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1344197 01/08/10 07:59 PM
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O crap. What HAVE I done? "dewster" is going to read the CP1 Data List and start/continue/ramp up the ranting and the raving!

Seriously, though. Does make for some interesting reading.

Lawrence

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1344236 01/08/10 09:02 PM
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Patch 5 is the nicest .... its about the best AP patch I've played on a DP.


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1344239 01/08/10 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
I wouldn't call them simple tone controls ....

Please don't think that I'm trying to be accusatory, but did you play with the tone controls at all? If they are more than simple tone controls I'm all ears. I mean, you're saying they're not, what information do you have that makes you say that?


No I just played the standard patches ... but they were fine and there were no amp artifacts in the sound. As I said the only thing I could hear that MAY have been slightly off was a barely noticeable artifact on the decay and I can't even be sure I heard that it was so subtle it certainly wasn't any looping or stretching you hear on some other boards. That was it everything else sounded fine to my ears.


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dr Popper #1344241 01/08/10 09:08 PM
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So, that's "Lush Piano"?

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dr Popper #1344293 01/08/10 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper
No I just played the standard patches ... but they were fine and there were no amp artifacts in the sound. As I said the only thing I could hear that MAY have been slightly off was a barely noticeable artifact on the decay and I can't even be sure I heard that it was so subtle it certainly wasn't any looping or stretching you hear on some other boards. That was it everything else sounded fine to my ears.

I was asking about the tone controls, which you said aren't simple tone controls. What about the tone controls and why aren't they simple?

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1344303 01/08/10 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
O crap. What HAVE I done? "dewster" is going to read the CP1 Data List and start/continue/ramp up the ranting and the raving!

Too late!

From the MIDI parameters, the 3 band is the standard lo, mid, mid freq, hi EQ thing on just about every cheap mixer worth it's salt. The 2 band is lo, lo freq, hi, hi freq, which is more parametric I guess, but who really cares.

Mystery solved. Entire freakin' patches, (oh, excuse me, PIANO BLOCKS) wasted on EQ. Entire paragraphs in their glossy promo materials wasted on EQ. Unbelievable.

The state rests its case Your Honor. We find Yamaha guilty of depraved lameness.

Last edited by dewster; 01/08/10 10:32 PM.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1344475 01/09/10 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
So, that's "Lush Piano"?


Until now we had to make do with lush pianists...

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1344544 01/09/10 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by dewster


Mystery solved. Entire freakin' patches, (oh, excuse me, PIANO BLOCKS) wasted on EQ. Entire paragraphs in their glossy promo materials wasted on EQ. Unbelievable.



However, if the AP sounds are accurate (sampling), and highly playable (modeling) who cares how they do it? I'm interested in the CP1 because it may sound better (more accurate) than V-Piano, but I will only seriously consider it if it plays as well as the V-Piano.

I'll have to be convinced on both points buy playing the CP1 myself.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1344998 01/09/10 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
However, if the AP sounds are accurate (sampling), and highly playable (modeling) who cares how they do it?

Well, if it's traditional sample compression then the size of the sample set is very important as it dictates how far into the decay looping begins. If it is non-traditional sample compression then, I agree, it can matter less as to how they do it.

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I'm interested in the CP1 because it may sound better (more accurate) than V-Piano, but I will only seriously consider it if it plays as well as the V-Piano.

I'll have to be convinced on both points buy playing the CP1 myself.

I'm very interested in this line myself, hence my agitation at the deceptive way Yamaha is explaining things. If EQ is such a huge thing in their literature, then can the sample compression be very new? The odd focus leads me to believe it isn't, which would disappoint me - but, yeah, time will tell.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1345008 01/09/10 06:45 PM
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I popped into the main Yamaha store in town yesterday, however as I rather expected, the new CP instruments were unfortunately not on display.

I had a brief play on their Avant Grand though - quite impressive.

The store clerk I spoke to believed the CP1 and CP5 were available at one of the chain music stores in an out-of-town shopping mall. I'll try to head over there later today.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Kawai James #1345671 01/10/10 01:33 PM
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Hi guys, let me quickly introduce myself:

Going on 30, music professional, working for Yamaha Music Europe, playing a damn lot of music in different setting: solo, funk, soul, classical,...

Wanted to let you all know my experience with the new CP1. I played on it a long time ago when it was still in prototype phase and LOVED it immediately. Touch, response, sound, all perfect to me. I owned a CP300 at that time and found the new CP1 a major improvement. A few months ago when first production started I played it again and then decided to get one. It should arrive sometime this week, I'll keep you posted.

My other gear: Fantom G7, Hammond XK2 with Neo Instruments Ventilator, Leslie 815. Grand piano Kawai GE-1.


Employed by Yamaha Europe. Same deal, all my posts are personal opinions, not company opinions!
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Moose #1345687 01/10/10 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Pedro Gordts
working for Yamaha Music Europe

So, what's the deal between the CP1/5/50? Is the CFIII patch the same on all of them? Or is that sample set somehow inferior on the CP50?

Do you have any technical information to share, such as whether the the CP line sample compression utilizes stretching, looping, and/or layering (i.e. old-school junk) or something completely new? I'm very interested in this line but your company is publishing technically vague promo materials for it that I find more annoying than informative.

Oh yeah, I forgot, welcome!

Last edited by dewster; 01/10/10 02:23 PM.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Moose #1345689 01/10/10 01:49 PM
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Welcome to Piano World Moose! smile

Last edited by Richard Stark; 01/10/10 02:29 PM.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Rille Stark #1345709 01/10/10 02:21 PM
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Welcome Moose. Good to have more industry insiders posting here!

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1345753 01/10/10 03:10 PM
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Just as a price comparison for what is available right now in the US...

Yamaha CP50, $1,699.99
Kawai MP8II, $1,899.97
Korg SV-1 88, $2,199.97
Yamaha CP300, $2,199.99
Yamaha S90XS, $2,399.99
Roland RD700GX, $2,599.97
Yamaha CP5, $2,599.99
Kurzweil PC3X, $2,995.97
Nord Stage EX 88, $3,499.97
Yamaha CP1, $4,999.00
Roland V-Piano, $5,999.97

So, what does the CP1 compete with? Dewster's point is well taken. At $4999 the CP1 is clearly priced out of the mid-range and thus should be offering some technological advancements. Most would agree that Nord in general is overpriced from a purely hardware standpoint, but they do have some black magic going on under the hood. How will Nord price the forthcoming Nord Piano?

The CP1 undercuts the V-Piano significantly. So, perhaps the CP1 is not intended to be Yamaha's case study in modeling (not meant to compete with the V-Piano). From a style standpoint, The CP1 appears to reach out to the same audience as the SV-1 with the CP5 closest in price. One thing is for sure, the CP50 is priced aggressively.

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