Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Hysterical tunings etc...

"How about a step by step sequence of how a tuner tunes "Reverse Well"? I have already done that many times Jeff and I would gladly do it now but I have run out of time. I have to go to work now.

The statement stands on its own as a paragraph and it is implied within that statement that Isaac is not an expert.

Making a self-aggrandizing statement such as this only serves to diminish further the opinion the reader may have of the author.

Sorry can i remember you that it was you who set the statement concerning Isaac alone.
And let me also remember that my statements were a return of a pseudo-objective statement of Isaac.

Thank you Bill, wise man.

Now we're getting somewhere....

I learned how to speak french by being taught phonetics in order to get the pronunciation correct, or at least, better....the phonetic were dropped after the first year as we progressed.
If, by learning to tune using the method, a student gets the basics faster and is able to navigate towards effectiveness then it has my vote.

My main premise is NOT an attack on historic tunings...my fourth para of my first post makes the point...

My main beef is that if as much 'hot air' was expelled in an attempt to get technicians to seek excellence in the basics, the trade would be in much better shape....
If folks are getting bored learning the basics they're not paying attention...we should all be perennial students. I personally picked up a great tip yesterday on pin setting and rendering on a Shigeru Kawai which had been baffling me.

I appreciate all the comments and interest that has been shown here and maybe it's time for a new thread as to how we 'raise the bar' in the basics.....

Education that is highly qualified and offers credentials is generally done by schools, not organizations. Schools follow standards of schooling set out by governments, colleges and universities and answer to them. Organizations follow their own rules. What sets them apart is that there is no school in existence that demands from their graduates a ransom every year to keep their diploma valid....period. Therefore the PTG does not share the same light as schools do and should not be compared to them.

Networking can be with anyone, PTG or not. Promoting networking amongst a single organizations members is fine for their own website, literature ect. It has no place on a public forum that wishes not to to be the venue for that sort of thing. This is how unions form...push away the independents, brainwash people into thinking there is no other way. We can see where the unions have got us.

Bill, you can call our temperaments whatever you wish. As long as our customers can play in all keys with a generally indistiguishable change of effect/colour, it sounds musical and they are pleased...its ET for them and for me.

[quote=Bill As I see it, there has been only one organized way to spread the knowledge of what true ET is and to get technicians to tune it consistently well. There is a rule posted at the top of this forum which forbids anyone from saying what organized way to get most technicians who choose to follow that path is. No one may respond to it but it may be copied and pasted in posts as it has been done in this topic. No one may offer an objection or a counter opinion. Ignorance is strength. As long as the way most technicians could benefit by continuing education, networking and recognized credentials is forbidden and suppressed by rule, reverse well will prevail as standard tuning, not ET. [/quote]



Bill, The rule does not state that you cannot mention PTG and RPT's. It just states that you should not use it (PTG) like a religious conviction that is beaten over everyone's heads in order to "save them". Save them from what? Doing things in a way that is different than the way you would do them?

There are other paths, and you can win more hearts and minds if you limit the misguided zealotry.

Isaacs expertise is out of question. We all know that he is the best tuner on earth (quote from the christmas gift thread) (and of course i know that he is kinda kidding there...)




But with pseudo-objective statements (a subjective statement that cannot be recognized immediately as a subjective one, they are worse than plain subjective ones, like "i personally don´t like...") he is questioning his expertise.

Yes please, Bill.

How about starting a new Topic, though. This one is kind of messy. I will make every effort to discuss the subject objectively. If you do likewise, it should be constructive.

I see an example of a sloppy argument for ET repeating itself here... It goes something like this: (correct me if I'm misrepresenting anything written)

I tune ET because that's my intent, and that's what I call it. While tuning to the level of making a master tuning for the exam takes a lot of time, you can do a fine job by just getting the temperament done so that the thirds progress pretty well. It doesn't really matter if it isn't up to the eveness of a master tuning - my clients seem to be happy with my work. No one has ever asked me to do anything differently...

So we have this fairly loose approach to ET - so what if things aren't just right - the piano plays fine, the unisons are solid and it's at pitch.

Then when another tuning approach which respects the tonal approach of Western music theory is talked about - all of a sudden any difference must create a problem or make the piano unplayable???

I'd urge anyone that would like to understand this a little more to go to rollingball.com and spend some time looking at the graphs of historical and modern alternate temperaments.

Equal temperament is represented by a set of even sized blocks from left to right. If you just look at the thumbnails for well/victorian well and modern well temperaments, you should be able to see a pattern.(I couldn't post some of them here - someone else give it a try, please?) Kindof a bell-shaped curve represents potential energy - less at the left and right than the middle. Left and right represents the top of the circle of fifths.

There is a range - steep bell curves to very minor bell shapes. There's even a historical reference to reverse well - DeMorgan from 1843. For a class I even created the penny temperament under the modern wells. I tuned this to show what a maximum of one cent offset from ET in a purposefull direction would sound like. The class heard the difference from an accurate ET.

What I don't often hear talked about is the range of error while tuning. If your target is a straight line, any small deviation makes a change - the line is no longer straight. If your target is a curve, especially one of the steeper curves and some errors are made, you still end up with a curve - you will end up with some kind of well temperament - maybe just not the one you were aiming for.

Which leads to this - if your implementation of ET is less strict than creating a master tuning, then by KNOWING the basic direction of historical tempering you can push your errors in that direction instead of letting them fall in a mish-mash pattern.

Ron Koval
chicagoland

To go back to the first post about tuning accuracy and pin/string control - that is perhaps the best argument for setting aside aural learning and embracing electronic tuning devices for all student tuners. No kindof, close enough - either it stays, or it doesn't - it's right there in the display for the student to see.

Ron Koval
chicagoland

It could be that electronic tuning devices impede learning tuning accuracy and pin control. If you are doing several aural checks, each one checks your accuracy, compared to checking only with a device.

You wouldn't have to set aural tuning aside since it helps in many ways, the ETD can just be used as a tool in the verification of the note slipping or not. The main setbacks with aural tuning checks for this purpose, compared to ETD is that A) A student may not know which note is the one that slipped on an aural check B) They would have to go to a third reference to compare C) The accuracy of the ETD surpasses the ear in distinguishing slips of say 1/3 cent or less...even higher with inexperienced tuners.

yes , but the drawback of this is that you don't learn as much to verify with the usual checks, the display being disturbed and changing note if you play more than one (in automatic mode).

It is a very useful tool, but you are tempted to use it more than necessarily, and it may also change a little the way you tune (eventually for the best, but this is not not certain) . I see that as a wonderful tool in the hands of an advanced student (some of them are showing you lot of things).

It generally slows your hearing because yours eyes are way slower than your ears, and I am unsure it is possible to focus on visualization and hearing at the same time (to me it is not, the 2 senses dont tune well together the ear waits for the eye).

Kamin, scientific studies have shown that the ears and the eyes work together almost seamlessly. This is one of the reasons that many aural tuners find the ETD to be such an asset after getting used to it.

From a physical perspective the eyes process information in the same way and relatively the same speed as ears do, the neural pathways are relatively the same and operate at the same speed to the brain for processing.

Lastly, recent evidence from scientists are pointing in the direction that how the inner ear works and particular areas of the basilar membrane and cochlea function in a far different way from what we have thought. It was always assumed that there was reverse wave propagation in the cochlea...this is now known to be not true. Most importantly, none of us share exactly the same sensitivity to all the bandwidths of frequency. Genetics, partial low/high frequency loss, differing physical makeup of the inner ear components and even differing diets/body chemistry can effect what a person perceives to be hearing compared to another person.

In this respect, two people with reasonably good vision will still see and interpret a spinner on an ETD pretty well the same way and will get similar results. It does not pass through ears that filter what is being heard before processing.

Now you're really talking, Peter. I can assume and forgive that you meant no harm with the title post, "hysterical tunings". For me, that has been a too often told joke, like the "You can tune a piano but you can't tuna fish". I cannot tell you how many times, when I was deeply concentrating on a stage when some stage hand walked up, said that and laughed at his own joke. I did not laugh.

Likewise, I have heard far too many technicians with no experience whatsoever in historical temperaments, whose only concept of that has been wildly dissonant wolves, dismiss the entire idea as "hysterical" and similarly laugh at their own joke. Owen Jorgensen was a quiet and reserved man, very mild in mannerisms but he did not appreciate the humor in that joke. It provoked and perturbed him as it does me.

One year, PTG sent out a preliminary schedule of classes to be presented at the convention. There is was, "Hysterical Temperaments". While I am sure that whoever wrote that meant no offense by it, the PTG home office was quickly informed about how offensive it really was and the wording was promptly changed.

You and I should really have no disputes. You are a promoter of excellence in the craft of piano technology just as I am. I admire your accomplishments and respect your knowledge and skills, I always have. I only ask you to keep an open mind.

There is a place within this craft for the servicing of instruments of lesser quality through basic and solid technique. There is a place for tuning that goes beyond the scope of what is considered standard practice. Everyone has the right to their own opinion and to practice their trade with dignity.

The precise definition of ET as it was understood in the late 19th Century. Thank you!

..And I hear from some bartenders that you can make a Martini extra dry if you lean over the glass and whisper the word "Vermouth" a couple times.

[/quote]There is a place within this craft for the servicing of instruments of lesser quality through basic and solid technique. There is a place for tuning that goes beyond the scope of what is considered standard practice. Everyone has the right to their own opinion and to practice their trade with dignity.[/quote]

My comprehension must be lower than everybody's...but the sense I get from all this appears to be yours is right and everybody's is wrong..... and you have a large organization and an untold list of people who agree...

Isaac. Don't worry about your disagreement with Bernhard Stopper. I really enjoy reading your posts, you have a great deal of interesting knowledge that I can... kind of understand sometimes. Keep it coming at us.

and Bernhard is great too. I like hearing him....try to sell his machine.....just kidding Bernhard. I appreciate and enjoy your expertise and views.

As we all know, piano tech. work is very serious business, seemingly too serious sometimes.
I enjoy coming here and reading, partly for entertainment, partly for education, sometimes to throw my two cents in freely, and a great deal of the time because there is humor here, where we can relax in a piano tech. environment in a different way than while working. This is a place where we can discuss, agree, and disagree about the subject we all care deeply about......piano service.