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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dr Popper #1342015 01/06/10 02:55 AM
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When i look at the Andy's music link on pg 2 the decription there give me the idea that the cp5 will have 11 of the 17 scm sounds that the CP1 has and the cp50 will have 6 of those 17 scm. So the comparison chart just shown is saying that the cp5 will have 17 piano voices and the cp50 will have 12....and some of those in each case will be awm2...but again the idea I'm getting from comparing both charts is that 11 of those (on cp5) and 6 of those (on cp50) will be pure scm.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dr Popper #1342020 01/06/10 03:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper
The sample sets are the same the processing is different according to the model the CP1 has higher quality processing then the CP5 which is better then the CP50 etc

Its similar to Roland's V-Piano, RD700GX , RD300GX or Kawai's MP8, MP5 etc ....

Look here for a comparison chart between the CP1,CP5 and CP50....

CP series comparison chart

Jesus, I'm literally drowning in Yamaha marketspeak here and that damned comparison chart is part of the problem.

So because the CP1 has two SCM Piano Blocks dedicated to the CFIIIS AP, and the CP50 only has one that's supposed to mean something to me? How does one even care about the presence or absence of SCM Piano Blocks? I don't even know what they are for god's sake. All other differences in the synthesis chains between the two models looks entirely meaningless from the standpoint of an AP sample set (unless you want to do something outlandish with the natural sound of a grand piano like distort it, or compress it, or run it through an amp simulator).

But you're seriously telling me the difference between one SCM block and two is equivalent to the difference between a RD300GX and a V-Piano? Pulease...

KAWAI James, you seem to understand this and you do this for a living - can you interpret this gibberish into plain EE for me?

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1342023 01/06/10 03:15 AM
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plain EE?

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Kawai James #1342024 01/06/10 03:17 AM
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Originally Posted by KAWAI James
plain EE?

Electrical Engineering.

OK, I'm so desperate I'll take any explanation whatsoever that even attempts to describe the utter magic going on in those crazy Yamaha SCM piano blocks. It must be clear to you how the presence of one is pure mediocrity, but two somehow get you to the cutting edge of barely-out-of-the-lab physical modeling V-Pianoisms.

Originally Posted by KAWAI James
It makes sense here too.

Please explain.

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Still confusing? Not to me!

Feel free to chime in here too Lawrence.

Seriously, I'm lost. Either everyone is on drugs or I'm insane.

Last edited by dewster; 01/06/10 03:31 AM.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1342081 01/06/10 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by dewster

Either everyone is on drugs or I'm insane.


Either work for me ;-)


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dr Popper #1342172 01/06/10 10:42 AM
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Lol! wink


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"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Kawai James #1342274 01/06/10 12:46 PM
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Yea, probably the latter (for me I mean) - please excuse my impassioned posts. I'm letting Yamaha get the better of me.

Someday maybe they'll have "DP marketing hype overload" in the list of valid psychological disorders. Probably no known cure.

Last edited by dewster; 01/06/10 04:12 PM.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1343541 01/07/10 11:20 PM
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The public promo material for this line confirms one of my worst suspicions about the AP voices / signal chain:

From Illustrated_Guide_to_the_CP1.pdf

When an acoustic piano is played live as part of a band, the sound thereof is normally picked up using a number of microphones and then mixed in order to prevent it from being drowned out by the other instruments. As part of this process, the signal from the microphones is boosted using pre-amplifiers and its frequency characteristic is adjusted using tone control in order to realize the best possible sound for the overall ensemble. For this reason, the acoustic piano voices of the CP1 feature microphone pre-amp simulators that can be used to optimize the sound in the very same way.

Next page (CFIIIS; CF 3Band, CF 2Band):

...microphone pre-amps featuring two- or three-band tone control and perfectly tuned to the characteristics of the CFIIIS have also been included to complete the sound of this remarkable instrument.

Next page (S6B; S6 3Band, S6 2Band):

In combination with this piano voice, furthermore, you can also use a microphone pre-amp unit with two- or three-band tone control perfectly tuned to the S6B sound.


Come and see our brand new 2 and 3 band preamp tone controls! "Perfectly tuned" (WTF?) to the piano sample no less! Our engineers finally figure out how to independently adjust bass, midrange, and treble! Or just bass and treble, if you prefer that instead.

This is some of the most shamelessly empty hype I've seen lately. Quite frankly, I'm shocked to see a company like Yamaha sink this low - it makes me fundamentally question the intelligence of their management.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1343640 01/08/10 02:09 AM
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You got to relax .... take a chill pill ;-)

Sounded all good to me ....


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dr Popper #1343680 01/08/10 04:19 AM
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No more coffee for dewster.
Is New Jersey in general one of the most agitated of today's Excited States of America?


Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
theJourney #1343707 01/08/10 05:52 AM
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Let their marketing say whatever they want. The marketing of most big companies is useless. Let's try to read the real information between the lines. For me the biggest differences between CP1 and CP5 seem to be this:

CP1:
+ more AP/EP SCM sounds
+ DX7 sounds use SCM
+ AP SCM processing has a few more steps (let's suppose they serve a "good" purpose)
+ bigger display
- twice the price of the CP5
- no extra sounds like strings (or similar soft sounds for background layers) at all

CP5:
+ half the CP1 price, but same action and near in AP/EP sound quality
+ all the usual extra sounds like strings etc
- less AP/EP SCM sounds
- DX7 sounds use conventional sampling technique, only
- AP SCM processing is a bit less capable compared to CP1
- smaller display

Personally, I think the CP1 should only have one "-", namely the much higher price. The 2nd "-" sucks balls big time, IMHO.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
madshi #1343728 01/08/10 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi


CP1:
We could add:
- useless pitch bend (no actual sounds on the board that need pitch bend)

CP5:
+ half the CP1 price, but same action and near in AP/EP sound quality

It's not clear on what "near in AP/EP sound quality" actually means, until an A/B test can be done.



Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1343730 01/08/10 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by dewster
The public promo material for this line confirms one of my worst suspicions about the AP voices / signal chain:


Why is "tone control" a bad thing?

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1343731 01/08/10 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by dewster

Someday maybe they'll have "DP marketing hype overload" in the list of valid psychological disorders. Probably no known cure.


I for one, am going to have a giggle when "dewster" ends up buying one of these new Yamaha stage pianos. Just sayin' . . .

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1343733 01/08/10 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by dewster

Come and see our brand new 2 and 3 band preamp tone controls! "Perfectly tuned" (WTF?) to the piano sample no less! Our engineers finally figure out how to independently adjust bass, midrange, and treble! Or just bass and treble, if you prefer that instead.


If their "tone control" is nothing more than a 2- or 3-band equalizer I would agree it's not a very impressive feature. More or less every radio has those controls...

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1343736 01/08/10 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
We could add:
- useless pitch bend (no actual sounds on the board that need pitch bend)

Well, I don't have much of a problem with superfluous features. I have a much bigger problem with missing features.

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
It's not clear on what "near in AP/EP sound quality" actually means, until an A/B test can be done.

Dr Popper made an A/B test - though only a very short one. But it's the only thing we have right now and he stated:

Quote
There is little difference in the quality of the sounds between the CP1 and CP5 they are simply different just like no two acoustic pianos are the same.

Quote
both were more then acceptable (to my ear) and sounded better then the Advent Grand we played as well

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
madshi #1343791 01/08/10 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi

CP1:
- no extra sounds like strings (or similar soft sounds for background layers) at all

Exactly. When is top-of-the-line not top-of-the-line? If I'm paying top dollar, I want the kitchen sink model. Couldn't they have left out the (probably fairly expensive) three-level backlit YAMAHA logo and instead given me all of the (essentially free) extra sounds instead?

The lack of the extra sounds is most likely what would keep me from buying the CP1. The heck of it is, it's probably as trivial as commenting in/out a few INCLUDE statements in the code.

Last edited by dewster; 01/08/10 11:16 AM.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1343798 01/08/10 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Why is "tone control" a bad thing?

It's not, in and of itself. But they waste a lot of space in a big glossy multi-page full color promo, something that doesn't have much text in the first place, crowing about their precious new 2 and 3 band tone controls. If this is some kind of Chewbacca defense, then what are they hiding / defending?

It's like the brochure for a new car not telling you how many pistons are in the engine or whether the transmission is manual or automatic - but then going on and on about how it rolls around on these special things called tires, and how the cigarette lighter is totally innovative.

Last edited by dewster; 01/08/10 11:05 AM.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1343799 01/08/10 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I for one, am going to have a giggle when "dewster" ends up buying one of these new Yamaha stage pianos. Just sayin' . . .

Oh, I'm not saying that won't happen, it could. But Yamaha is doing their level best to completely turn me off to this line by being so coy with real technical details, yet at the same time being so strangely fixated on minor BS details.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
theJourney #1343807 01/08/10 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by theJourney
No more coffee for dewster.

Ha ha!

Originally Posted by theJourney
Is New Jersey in general one of the most agitated of today's Excited States of America?

I'm just a transplant here, but have noticed that New Jerseyans in general tend to speak their minds. I guess it's catching.

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