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Which do you dislike? #1341501
01/05/10 03:19 PM
01/05/10 03:19 PM
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This is not meant to be a piano bashing thread and for many, including me, the "answer" may be "none". But I thought it might be "interesting" to give a list of most of the Tier 1 and Tier 2 pianos from the PB and have people tell us if they thought any on the list were highly overrated or they just personally didn't like them and why. This can be a purely personal dislike, i.e. one might be thinking "I know this is a high quality instrument, but my personal taste in tone or touch doesn't allow me to like it".

Boesendorfer, Bluthner, Bechstein, Steinway, Fazioli, Steingraeber, M&H, Estonia, Schimmel, Shigeru, Sauter, Forster, Feurich, Grotrian, Seiler

Please do no make this a thread for "responding" in an angry way to someone who doesn't like your favorite piano!

Last edited by pianoloverus; 01/05/10 03:20 PM.
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Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: pianoloverus] #1341529
01/05/10 03:42 PM
01/05/10 03:42 PM
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turandot Offline
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"have people tell us if they thought any on the list were highly overrated or they just personally didn't like them and why."

It seems to me you're going in two different directions here. Comments about any piano being highly overrated are likely to produce angry retorts that you don't want.

Comments that endorse the quality but indicate a difference in taste shouldn't elicit angry retorts, but it's not beyond the realm of possibility. smile

For example, I don't relate well musically to August Forster pianos. I hope that doesn't make anyone angry. I do think at least one of your listed brands is highly overrated, but I won't mention it in order to not disturb the happy mood that pervades your thread.

If I may ask a question, you said that your list includes "most of" the brands in your chosen categories. Why not all?



Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: turandot] #1341563
01/05/10 04:15 PM
01/05/10 04:15 PM
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If people can express their opinions and responses to those opinions without being nasty or arrogant or immature then someone saying a piano is overrated shouldn't create a problem. I would also assume for the most part people will be saying that these opinions are based on their personal tonal or touch dislikes.

Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: pianoloverus] #1341597
01/05/10 04:47 PM
01/05/10 04:47 PM
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Thank you for answering a question I did not ask while completely ignoring the question that I did ask.


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The fate of the modern wartime soldier
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Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: turandot] #1341611
01/05/10 04:56 PM
01/05/10 04:56 PM
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Can't do that.

There are too many people here who enjoy their choice of piano.

And who am I to say that I don't like it?

It is a matter of THEIR choice and falling in love with a certain sound/touch preference. It may not have been mine, but I do respect that our opinions and our choices may be different.

'sides, I enjoy most every piano that I play for its own characteristics.

LL


"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and life to everything."
Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: lilylady] #1341637
01/05/10 05:22 PM
01/05/10 05:22 PM
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This is like choosing different kinds of chocolate truffels or a meal a fancy restaurant. Which one do you really like and want to choose is your personal taste. The Schimmel and Boesendorfer pianos for example, have a far different sound than that of the M&H or Steinway. The older instruments of the latter two actually sound better to me than the new ones, but again that's my opinion.

I'm not really familiar with some of the others in the list so I can't be the judge.

John


Nothing.
Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: pianoloverus] #1341657
01/05/10 05:47 PM
01/05/10 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
If people can express their opinions and responses to those opinions without being nasty or arrogant or immature then someone saying a piano is overrated shouldn't create a problem. I would also assume for the most part people will be saying that these opinions are based on their personal tonal or touch dislikes.


Disliking something is quite a different beast than calling something "overrated". You are correct in that the former is simply a matter of opinion, however the latter implies some level of quantitative analysis. Overrated vs what? Popular opinion? Fine? Price (as in $$$)? Any talk of something being "overrated" is bound to lead to some very unproductive discussion. After all, the very act of using the term overrated has more posts in this thread without even getting into any specific pianos!

Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: John Citron] #1341658
01/05/10 05:49 PM
01/05/10 05:49 PM
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Mercy, pianolaverus! Talk about stirring the pot. Reminds me once of when the director of my agency [who had been in the first wave at Iwo Jima] called in all his senior managers and asked them to tell him nicely what they didn't like about him. They all looked at the ceiling and whistled.

But in answer to your question--and with disclaimers--I can only address Steinway. I don't necessarily think it is over-rated as such, but perhaps it is overrated considering how much it costs. I can only compare it to Petrof and Estonia, both of which have preferable tones to me and both of which, in comparable sizes, cost a lot less. For all I know the same could apply to the other top tier pianos--I have no way of knowing.

But this is just another way of saying that there is a law of diminishing returns as you go up in price.

Russ


Estonia L190--Serial # 7117
Ragtime should never be played fast--Scott Joplin

Repertoire (Ready for Carnegie Hall smile ): Fur Elise; Beethoven Minuet in G; Chopin: Prelude 28-7; Joplin: The Entertainer

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Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: bitWrangler] #1341672
01/05/10 05:58 PM
01/05/10 05:58 PM
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The people who have the experience and expertise to answer your question probably also have the good sense not to.




Keith D Kerman
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Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: bitWrangler] #1341678
01/05/10 06:05 PM
01/05/10 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by bitWrangler
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
If people can express their opinions and responses to those opinions without being nasty or arrogant or immature then someone saying a piano is overrated shouldn't create a problem. I would also assume for the most part people will be saying that these opinions are based on their personal tonal or touch dislikes.


Disliking something is quite a different beast than calling something "overrated". You are correct in that the former is simply a matter of opinion, however the latter implies some level of quantitative analysis. Overrated vs what? Popular opinion? Fine? Price (as in $$$)? Any talk of something being "overrated" is bound to lead to some very unproductive discussion. After all, the very act of using the term overrated has more posts in this thread without even getting into any specific pianos!


Yes, it may not be possible for some people to say some piano is overrated without getting flamed. I really don't think it's a problem with the word "overrated" being unclear: it's more a problem with people getting defensive, overly sensitive and less than mature.

But if anyone feels uneasy calling a piano "overrated", then just tell us about any pianos whose tone or touch you "personally" dislike?

I understand that some posters would not be comfortable saying that a particular piano is "overrated" because,for one thing, some posters will unfortunately, despite my request, attack them for this. (I just got a PM from a member who thinks the piano I own is overrated(I donlt think he knows I own this piano).

Or, if you prefer, send me a PM about overrated pianos. I promise to treat them confidentially.

Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: Keith D Kerman] #1341684
01/05/10 06:16 PM
01/05/10 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
The people who have the experience and expertise to answer your question probably also have the good sense not to.


Since you're a dealer, I realize it would be inappropriate for you to say although you once hinted you thought some of the highest rated pianos were not so great...If I buy three D's will you at least PM me your opinion?

Non dealers have, of course, made thousands of posts about overrated pianos at PW, but the undeserved flaming some have gotten(assuming they expressed their opinion in a reasonable way) makes it hard for many.

Interestingly enough, I got the idea for this thread from a thread at the Pianist Corner about composers you dislike. When it comes to composers, people seem not have any problem saying thinks like Bach is not one of the top 18 composers.

Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: pianoloverus] #1341694
01/05/10 06:24 PM
01/05/10 06:24 PM
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total mess up

Last edited by apple*; 01/05/10 06:25 PM. Reason: totally wrong post

accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: pianoloverus] #1341697
01/05/10 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
When it comes to composers, people seem not have any problem saying thinks like Bach is not one of the top 18 composers.


blasphemy


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: Keith D Kerman] #1341715
01/05/10 06:41 PM
01/05/10 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
The people who have the experience and expertise to answer your question probably also have the good sense not to.




Indeed, and then there's the question of the matches. While matches have their uses, to whom do you entrust them. Do you pass them to someone who insists that those who doubt the value of his question are either "nasty", "arrogant", "immature", "overly sensitive", "defensive", or "less than mature"?

I wouldn't.


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: turandot] #1341725
01/05/10 06:51 PM
01/05/10 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by turandot
Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
The people who have the experience and expertise to answer your question probably also have the good sense not to.




Indeed, and then there's the question of the matches. While matches have their uses, to whom do you entrust them. Do you pass them to someone who insists that those who doubt the value of his question are either "nasty", "arrogant", "immature", "overly sensitive", "defensive", or "less than mature"?

I wouldn't.


Except I said that those words described people who unnecesarily flamed those who who post negative descriptions of their favorite piano. It had nothing to do with people who doubt the value of my question.

If you don't like my question ...don't respond.


Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: pianoloverus] #1341726
01/05/10 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
The people who have the experience and expertise to answer your question probably also have the good sense not to.


Since you're a dealer, I realize it would be inappropriate for you to say although you once hinted you thought some of the highest rated pianos were not so great...If I buy three D's will you at least PM me your opinion?

Non dealers have, of course, made thousands of posts about overrated pianos at PW, but the undeserved flaming some have gotten(assuming they expressed their opinion in a reasonable way) makes it hard for many.

Interestingly enough, I got the idea for this thread from a thread at the Pianist Corner about composers you dislike. When it comes to composers, people seem not have any problem saying thinks like Bach is not one of the top 18 composers.


If you buy 3 Ds from me, you will be privy to so much heretofore top secret piano information, your head will spin.

If someone says they don't like a composer who has been dead for 200+ years, the composer probably will not be too upset. If someone says here that they think a particular currently manufactured piano is overrated, they are likely to hurt the feelings of regulars on the board who spent big bucks and a lot of time buying one. They also will incur the wrath of dealers and manufacturer reps whose livelyhoods are dependant on those instruments being "overrated".


Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales - vintage and used Steinway, Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin
www.pianocraft.net
check out http://sitkadoc.com/
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Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: pianoloverus] #1341739
01/05/10 07:09 PM
01/05/10 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by turandot
Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
The people who have the experience and expertise to answer your question probably also have the good sense not to.




Indeed, and then there's the question of the matches. While matches have their uses, to whom do you entrust them. Do you pass them to someone who insists that those who doubt the value of his question are either "nasty", "arrogant", "immature", "overly sensitive", "defensive", or "less than mature"?

I wouldn't.


Except I said that those words described people who unnecesarily flamed those who who post negative descriptions of their favorite piano. It had nothing to do with people who doubt the value of my question.

If you don't like my question ...don't respond.



It's not that I don't like your question. That would be as bad as not liking your piano. smile

It's just that I don't see any good outcome that could result from this kind of probing, whereas I do see a lot of potential lather with no soap.

Take the word 'overrated'. You could slice it into different segments. Is the piano simply overpriced? Well, no...if it is uniquely matched to the buyer's preferences, how can it be overpriced? Is it over-hyped by its sellers? Virtually all pianos are. Is it overly praised by its owners? Why of course it is openly praised, but who decides what the boundary of 'over' is? Is it rated too highly in the Fine groupings? Could be, but are any opinions going to be changed by that old chestnut being kicked around once again?

BTW, I'd still like an answer to why "most of" instead of "all of".


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: Keith D Kerman] #1341740
01/05/10 07:10 PM
01/05/10 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman

If you buy 3 Ds from me, you will be privy to so much heretofore top secret piano information, your head will spin.
OK, but to see if you're for real...is it true that pianos really have only 87 keys? PM me if necessary.

Originally Posted by KeithKerman
If someone says they don't like a composer who has been dead for 200+ years, the composer probably will not be too upset. If someone says here that they think a particular currently manufactured piano is overrated, they are likely to hurt the feelings of regulars on the board who spent big bucks and a lot of time buying one. They also will incur the wrath of dealers and manufacturer reps whose livelyhoods are dependant on those instruments being "overrated".


Yes. I never imagined or thought it would be appropriate for any dealer to answer although some have certainly done the other side of the coin. Although some people's feeling will get hurt, posts indicating one is upset about another's opinion of their favorite piano must number in the tens of thousands here already. And Fine's ranking always cause a minor furor.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 01/05/10 07:11 PM.
Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: pianoloverus] #1341743
01/05/10 07:12 PM
01/05/10 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by turandot
Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
The people who have the experience and expertise to answer your question probably also have the good sense not to.




Indeed, and then there's the question of the matches. While matches have their uses, to whom do you entrust them. Do you pass them to someone who insists that those who doubt the value of his question are either "nasty", "arrogant", "immature", "overly sensitive", "defensive", or "less than mature"?

I wouldn't.
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by turandot
Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
The people who have the experience and expertise to answer your question probably also have the good sense not to.




Indeed, and then there's the question of the matches. While matches have their uses, to whom do you entrust them. Do you pass them to someone who insists that those who doubt the value of his question are either "nasty", "arrogant", "immature", "overly sensitive", "defensive", or "less than mature"?

I wouldn't.


Except I said that those words described people who unnecesarily flamed those who who post negative descriptions of their favorite piano. It had nothing to do with people who doubt the value of my question.

If you don't like my question ...don't respond.



Bit dog barks first, plover.


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: Horowitzian] #1341762
01/05/10 07:29 PM
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I just love a good smackdown.....



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Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: Peter Sumner- Piano Technician] #1341765
01/05/10 07:31 PM
01/05/10 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter Sumner- Piano Technician
I just love a good smackdown.....



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Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: pianoloverus] #1341767
01/05/10 07:34 PM
01/05/10 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Boesendorfer, Bluthner, Bechstein, Steinway, Fazioli, Steingraeber, M&H, Estonia, Schimmel, Shigeru, Sauter, Forster, Feurich, Grotrian, Seiler


I think All of the tier 1 & 2 pianos are overrated and overpriced!


♫♫♫ ♫♫♫
YAMAHA C2M PE
Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: pno] #1341769
01/05/10 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by pno
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Boesendorfer, Bluthner, Bechstein, Steinway, Fazioli, Steingraeber, M&H, Estonia, Schimmel, Shigeru, Sauter, Forster, Feurich, Grotrian, Seiler


I think All of the tier 1 & 2 pianos are overrated and overpriced!


I think only half are over priced, half are definitely overrated, and I personally dislike the other half.

Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: bitWrangler] #1341773
01/05/10 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by bitWrangler
Originally Posted by pno
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Boesendorfer, Bluthner, Bechstein, Steinway, Fazioli, Steingraeber, M&H, Estonia, Schimmel, Shigeru, Sauter, Forster, Feurich, Grotrian, Seiler


I think All of the tier 1 & 2 pianos are overrated and overpriced!


I think only half are over priced, half are definitely overrated, and I personally dislike the other half.


I don't know half of the tier 1 & 2 pianos half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of the tier 1 & 2 pianos half as well as they deserve.


Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales - vintage and used Steinway, Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin
www.pianocraft.net
check out http://sitkadoc.com/
www.twitter.com/pianocraft https://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel

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Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: pianoloverus] #1341778
01/05/10 07:50 PM
01/05/10 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Boesendorfer, Bluthner, Bechstein, Steinway, Fazioli, Steingraeber, M&H, Estonia, Schimmel, Shigeru, Sauter, Forster, Feurich, Grotrian, Seiler


I drool over every one of these pianos. In my limited experience there is no bad piano (just bad dealers but they are in the minority), even lower priced ones. I still have my Weber which works and sounds just fine, and I love it too.


Weber WC-46, Kawai RX-2, Steinway B
Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: Keith D Kerman] #1341780
01/05/10 07:53 PM
01/05/10 07:53 PM
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I do appreciate Turandot's phrasing, "I don't relate well musically to ..." There are absolutely at lease three maybe four brands on Pianoloverus' list that I feel that way about. I keep going back to test my past observations and always confirm. I won't name them as I would be acused of bashing competition, but I honestly don't see the attraction that many many others rave about.


Co-Author of The Complete Idiot's Guide To Buying A Piano. A "must read" before you shop.
Work for west coast dealer for Yamaha, Schimmel, Bosendorfer, Wm. Knabe.
Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: Keith D Kerman] #1341785
01/05/10 08:02 PM
01/05/10 08:02 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,896
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Steve Cohen Offline
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Steve Cohen  Offline
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,896
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
The people who have the experience and expertise to answer your question probably also have the good sense not to.




Now that is the Quote of the Month!!!

My take on the topic: No Comment.


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Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: pianoloverus] #1341787
01/05/10 08:03 PM
01/05/10 08:03 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 714
San Francisco, CA
crogersrx Offline
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crogersrx  Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 714
San Francisco, CA
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
This is not meant to be a piano bashing thread .....
Boesendorfer, Bluthner, Bechstein, Steinway, Fazioli, Steingraeber, M&H, Estonia, Schimmel, Shigeru, Sauter, Forster, Feurich, Grotrian, Seiler


I have not had the pleasure (or displeasure) of playing many of these, but of these that I have played, I liked and disliked members from each of the brands... for much the same reason that I like or dislike any piano.

Bosendorfer: 9(ish) footer:
Likes: Huge rumbling bass, glittering treble, nice sustain,
silky action.
Dislikes: Huge rumbling price tag, and overall the tone was
simpler and muffled(less overtone) than what I like
(I like Steinways).

Bechstein: 7 footer:
Likes: Clear distinct bass, sweet clear treble.
Dislikes: Very pricey, and once again, overall the tone was
simpler (less overtone) than what I like. The action
was too light.

Steinways: (B's, C's, D's)
Likes: Huge powerful bass, glittering treble, incredible
sustain, nearly perfect action (usually). Love the
solid pedal feel on a B... not so much on a D.
Dislikes: High price, but you (usually) get what you pay for
and overall the tone was complex and harmonious with
a nice projection. (I've played lots of Steinways, and
while I generally like > 50% of the B's, the A/O/L's
vary in the type of tone I like. The M/S are great
for their size, but tubby in the bass, nonetheless.

Mason & Hamlin: A (5'10"??)
Likes: Distinctive bass for a smallish piano, bright clean
treble.
Dislikes: The action was too light.

Schimmel: 6'
Likes: Clean bass, but not very powerful. Treble very clean
and pure, but not much overtone and sustain was not
long compared to a Steinway. Great action.
Dislikes: Too pricey for the type of sound you get.

These are just my thoughts from when I played these. My favorite piano I've ever played was a Hamburg S&S Model C. But, it was a very well taken care of piano, in a person's home who had an absolutely fantastic room for it, had it tuned and regulated and voiced to perfection. I think most pianos you encounter are more diamond in the rough than finished product. I recently went to a Steinway dealer, and out of 20 pianos I played, I only "liked" one rebuilt Model B... all the rest, on that day, I wouldn't have wanted if that was how they were going to sound and play forever.

BTW... my second favorite piano of all time that I have ever played is my own piano.


Cary Rogers, PharmD
San Francisco, CA
1887 Knabe 6'4" (Rebuilt)
Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: Keith D Kerman] #1341798
01/05/10 08:17 PM
01/05/10 08:17 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 714
San Francisco, CA
crogersrx Offline
500 Post Club Member
crogersrx  Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 714
San Francisco, CA
Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
[quote=Keith D Kerman]The people who have the experience and expertise to answer your question probably also have the good sense not to.


If someone says they don't like a composer who has been dead for 200+ years, the composer probably will not be too upset. If someone says here that they think a particular currently manufactured piano is overrated, they are likely to hurt the feelings of regulars on the board who spent big bucks and a lot of time buying one. They also will incur the wrath of dealers and manufacturer reps whose livelyhoods are dependant on those instruments being "overrated".


As I have played more and more quality pianos, I find that no two pianos are exactly alike. Sometimes, even the same piano is not alike on different days. So, I would have a hard time saying "I always love a S&S Model B" or "I always hate a XXXX model ###" because the one or ones that I have tried may have been regulated not to my liking, tuned poorly, be responding to climate changes from just being moved, be in a poorly voiced room for that piano, etc.

I just play a piano, and if I like it, I like it... if not, I don't buy it. Luckily, most pianos, I don't like, so I don't buy (as if I could afford to anyway! LOL).


Cary Rogers, PharmD
San Francisco, CA
1887 Knabe 6'4" (Rebuilt)
Re: Which do you dislike? [Re: Keith D Kerman] #1341807
01/05/10 08:30 PM
01/05/10 08:30 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,278
New York City
pianoloverus Online content OP
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pianoloverus  Online Content OP
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,278
New York City
Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman

I don't know half of the tier 1 & 2 pianos half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of the tier 1 & 2 pianos half as well as they deserve.


If you think this elementary little puzzle is too hard for me figure out and determine which pianos in your opinion are...er, not so....

As a small token for my silence, please send me just one complimentary DD or CCC.

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