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The above is undeniably true. The way I stretch the octaves does, in fact tend to bring the extremes at least closer to what they would be if the temperament were ET. The outer octaves are not where the harmony occurs. It is a simple as that.

I double dare anyone to say or find that a piano I have tuned in the EBVT III is "out of tune" with any other fixed pitch musical instrument, with any orchestra, with any musical ensemble of any kind. Note for note, bar by bar, entire musical composition, regardless of style or era. No artist, no private customer, no orchestra, no music ensemble, no church, no school, no hotel or no restaurant has ever said so and the proof of that is that they keep calling me back saying that the way I tuned sounded best to them among any they had ever tried.

I always keep in mind the lady who more than 20 years ago did not like the clinically perfect ET I had tuned for her. To her, it was not "right". An HT by a colleague was what she found to be musically satisfying.

Go ahead, beat your brains out trying to perfect ET, you will keep just as many customers as those who tune reverse well. But if you really want a musically satisfying experience, you will discover that ET is not really the answer and never has been.

I wonder why the externally moderated tuning, practical and written examinations i took in England in 1988 are any less valid than those currently taken here in the USA.
My skills, from hammer fitting, re-stringing, action re-building, key bushing, french polishing, pin block fitting, piano history, harpsichord maintenance not to mention tuning were all exhaustively examined by specialists from London piano factories and the City and Guilds certification dept in London, England and moderated by those that who had been teaching us for the three year duration of the class........yes Bill.......three years FULL TIME....

I've also done my time at the Steinway and Sons factory in New York.

What a load of bombastic twaddle to even dream of asking me to take an exam in order to 'qualify' for something I need to subscribe to financially every year in order to stay qualified.

My qualifications didn't cost me anything apart from blood, toil, tears and sweat.

These lines say it all......

“An orotundity, which I define as Nobelitis a pomposity in which one is treated as representative of more than oneself by someone conscious of representing more than himself.”

William G. Golding

I realized years ago that not all RPT's do good work. It would be nice if it was that simple and black and white but it isn't.
Simply taking and passing those tests does not prove that a tuner-technician will do good work.
This isn't a PTG forum last I checked. There is one of those too... and it is a good one, in it's own way. Just like this one is in it's own way. Why change it?

I personally like all of the different points of view here, even though I don't agree with all of them. You'll never find a place where everyone agrees.

And even if you did get your wish and every tuner-technician in the world took and past the tests to become RPTs, there would then be a whole new set of issues to fight about.

I have tuned pianos and come back after several years and they have barely needed touch-up. You just never can tell, especially with Bay Area weather. Of course, there are tuners whose tunings will not last under the same conditions. That is a skill that is difficult to test.

Peter, if you are really a PTG Associate member, you are already paying the same dues as any RPT with none of the benefits. Yes, the exams would cost you another $360 and you would, in fact, have to prove yourself all over again. Frankly, if I were you, with your experience, I would be itching to see if I could "ace" those exams, be the very first person who did. My prediction is that you would not even come close to that, in spite of the skills I know you have and respect you for what they are. Many of the skills you obviously have would not even be tested. But that does not mean that you are above the standards of PTG, no matter what your experience has been. No one, not one single person has ever been. So stop pretending that you are because I will never believe it and you will never be. You will not score a 100 on the written exam, you will not score a 100 on each of the technical exam scores and you will not score a 100 on each of the tuning exam scores. Don't place yourself above that until you can prove it and I already know you cannot. Nobody ever has!

Byron, no this is not a PTG forum but why tell the many PTG members who participate in it that they cannot say anything about PTG or suggest that people join PTG and take the exams when the owner of the forum clearly cannot stop PTG members from doing so? If he really did enforce such a rule, the forum would be diminished to mere trivia and the blind leading the blind.

You love us. You know you do.

RPD

You love PTG, I know you do

I have seen the same here when the piano had a humidity control system and even sometimes when it didn't. You're right, you never can tell but the most frustrating situations are those you expect to remain stable but go wildly off. Those are not a matter of pin setting.

By Golly you're right, he does, I really really think he does!

You also have to consider the fact that you don't always hear the truth from the piano owner. Someone may have tuned it two weeks prior to your arrival but for whatever reason they scheduled another one. But I know what you mean, sometimes they hold, sometimes they don't and like Bill said, if the tuner is good then the climate is most likely the problem.

The discussions pro uneven temperaments (UT), (they must not necessarily be historical) today are usually motivated because of the benefit of coloring keys.

This has not always been the priority.
The main goal of UT was to obtain the highest degree of purity in the keys of most use.
Key coloring was nothing more than an unavoidable side effect.

We often read from defenders of UT about 'clinical perfect' ET. What is a clinical perfect ET? There are millions of solutions to tune a piano In ET. When is it clinical perfect?

It has been proved that it is possible to tune pianos in ET that they can have an extreme level of purity, and no more limited to certain keys. We are then way closer to the roots of UT, the initial goal of purity of UT, than with UT.

Bernhard Stopper

Bill, I'm not a RPT either. Actually thinking about taking the test one of these days. I don't need it for the business or to prove to myself I can make a living out of piano service. I have a very full dance card, raised 4 kids, have 6 acres, 1200 sq ft shop, a log house with 1600 sq ft of deck and 2 new cars and all I've ever done is piano work. Don't need it to prove to others, including RPTs, that I can make as good, or better, living than they. Don't really need it for any validation at all. Like pointed out above, unfortunately in the real world of piano service the RPT is NOT a guarentee of quality, ethics or skill. It merely means that someone passed a test measuring basic skills in piano tech. The test is good and worthwhile thing. The PTG is a good and worthwhile thing. If and when I get around to the test it will be out of respect for the organization and what it stands for and all the good I've gained from it. However, ulitmately, as plainly seen a tech is judged in the marketplace upon his skills and ability to manage, market and conduct a profitable business. To characterize a knowledgeable non RPT tech, quite brutally, as incompetent or even cowardly is arrogant, without logical merit and damned rude. If your sentiments would represent the sole visage of the PTG it would not be a organization worth membership. Fortunately, from what I have seen, you are unique and extreme.

I am not certain what you mean by "solutions." Do you mean tuning sequences, the method of tuning equal temperament? Or do you mean that there are millions of temperaments that can be considered equal temperament? I disagree with the latter concept. The definition of equal temperament is quite specific.

What is unclear is not equal temperament, but rather, what is the pitch of a note on a piano. The pitch is generally defined as being something related to the periodicity of the tone. However, a piano, like most instruments, does not generate pure periodic tones. It decays, and the waveform changes constantly. Each of those changes affects the periodicity minutely, so that you cannot say what the pitch is to an exact degree of accuracy. Beyond that, we are all human, and cannot judge things to an exact degree of accuracy, either.

I am content to say that I tune so that the temperament has the characteristics of equal temperament, and similarly, that the octaves have the characteristics of octaves and other intervals, including unisons, have the characteristics of those unisons. We know what those characteristics should be from the theory. This is as close to equal temperament as we can expect to get on a piano.


I think I have answered that. The real question is, when is an unequal temperament as perfect? This is a problem that I have with them. While I am reasonably certain that I do not like my thirds too pure, it is usually difficult to tell, because beyond the temperament, I am not certain whether the other intervals, like the octaves, are tuned well enough for me to give a honest assessment.

In some occasion, the pitch of an unison can be stable enough (for some time, a few seconds may be) at an accuracy that is under the human ear discerning (0.5 cts if memory serves)

it is generally effectively evolving (hence the interest for a strong fast stabilization probably when tuning unisons)

Seen with the VT100 display on some occasion.

Agreed that we give the "impression" of justness, hence the tight relation of the tuning with the ear of the tuner (old tuners often raise high treble more) because most of pro tuners are on "automatic mode" when tuning. Some rely more on beat rates for justness and they dont provide less just tunings that the ones that rely on their pitch perception plus beat rates.

Then the piano also accept to be more or less just (pure) and more or less tempered. So we really produce something that is personal and linked to our musical ear to some degree, in any case.

You can hear what you are using for an instrument, Howie, and most customers are in your corner. It's the exception that are amusing to the point of having to bite a lower lip. I usually assume a very solemn look and say, "Well, let's see if I can make some slight improvements."

Here, Here,

I have been a member of the Guild for a long time. I was an RPT for 20 years , left because I was pursuing other interests and returned about five years ago. I will have to be tested again for RPT status and I will be tested just for my own sake.

I have a lot of respect for Bill for all that he has contributed to bringing young techs along over the years. I have never met Bill but I have to say I have also never met anyone like him in the Guild. He's just one guy. There is a lot of slamming the guild that goes on on this forum because someone gets mad a someone else. (One guy in particular).

As a Guild member I have felt unwelcome on this forum and that is why I seldom post here. I do agree with Bill on one thing. The post at the top of this forum is insulting to Guild members. I pretty much dropped out of the conversation here after that went up.

There are plenty of guild members who post here that do not feel unwelcome by the permanent posting at the top of this forum.

That posting is there for a reason. What, exactly would you think that would be? Could it be because a certain guild member acts in an offensive manner around here?

Two days ago both Jeff Deutschle, and BDB were singled out to be the bogeyman. Then yesterday both Peter and I are the bogeyman.

Who will it be today? And this is not offensive in some way?

Having a guild member, the very same member continually going after and singling out independents for criticism? Is this why we are here Thomson?

If the posting up there offends you Thomson you know what to do. There will be plenty of other members who are willing to take up your bandwidth.

And so another good thread turns into a train wreck, and here we all are not talking about the original topic but what certain guild members want to talk about.

And you have to ask why the posting up top? Really?

Without regarding any specific comments above, I can say that I agree with Thomas L. that the Guild is, overwhelmingly, a welcoming organization....I attended part of the PTG event in Grand Rapids...and met lots of the good folks here...(the home office folks GAVE me a bunch of Journals that I didn't have after my subscription expired for a while)...and we generally had a blast.

At the event I met two very, VERY heavy technicians who really set the pace in the rebuilding industry...Chuck Behm, and also Alex Kapteyn (from Michigan, no less). These were both (mere) Associate members...and I will go on record as saying that both of these guys WAY outpace many other rebuilders I've seen within, and outside the PTG. Some of the work I saw at the event by these guys was just breathtaking in its detail.

Associate, RPT. or non-member...it doesn't really justify the arguments we see here, its a small matter by comparison with all the other GOOD things going on in the industry...

JMHO

RPD

Thomson:

I have a little more mellow view of the situation than Dan.

When I put myself in Frank’s shoes, I think about how much simpler it is to say “Don’t do this…” than “Don’t do this… this way…” or “Don’t do this… for this reason…”

It is good that some kind of statement was made and some guidance was given. I think it would have been better yet if Bill’s fellow Guild members could have reined him in a bit, before the Forum Owner got involved.

But then this sort of thing is one of the reasons that I am not a Guild member. I would never belong to an organization that would have me as a member!

Dan, the topic title itself is what is offensive. It mocks those who choose to use historical temperaments. The person who wrote it has repeatedly mocked and ridiculed PTG as you have. So, it is OK to write posts that mock and ridicule PTG but it is not OK to suggest to someone that they join PTG and take the exams? The train wreck occurred with the very title of the topic itself.

"The main goal of UT was to obtain the highest degree of purity in the keys of most use.
Key coloring was nothing more than an unavoidable side effect."

With all due respect to you, Bernhard, this is not true and it shows that you really do not have any significant experience with non-ET's. Granted, it is what many people think. The spread of consonance and dissonance throughout the cycle of 5ths is an intended distribution.

I take the example of the use by one of my colleagues of the 7th Comma Meantone for romantic era music in particular. The so called "wolf" key of A flat is supposedly the "unusable" key but to those who know that temperament, it is exactly the opposite. It provides for a tremendous power and energy to that key which enhances greatly the music performed in that key. Dozens upon dozens of artists, many of whom have returned repeatedly have performed here using that temperament. There are dozens of CD's available. They often speak of the "magic" that has come to life in the music which they had never experienced before.

The more I start to think of just how completely wrong Peter is about what he thinks and how vulgarly he has broadcast his ignorance, the more I am determined to not let it go at that. The "bogeymen" Dan speaks of created their own situations. I write a strategy for someone to use a C fork to tune ET and both of them who really don't need to try some alternative to what they already know how to do, choose to trash it. Just who created that train wreck? The anti PTG, anti RPT people.

So, let's get real here. This topic is not about the merits or properties of historical temperaments, it is about one guy who chooses to insult and ridicule those who do. I am not about to let that go unchallenged. It would serve everyone best if this entire topic were deleted. If someone wants to discuss the merits of using non-ET's versus the merits of ET, then start a new thread but not with a title that calls everyone an idiot.