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Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
Elene #1338249 01/01/10 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Elene
ShchenshleeVAYgo noVAYgo ROkoo, LA and everybody. Sort of.

Bonne nouvelle année à tout le monde. (Ah, that was so much easier!)

Jeff, thanks for your generous posting and linking about Op. 35. I've downloaded your 2001 article but haven't read much of it yet. Also hunted down clips of the march from La Gazza Ladra. My idea of holiday fun-- good grief. (We were out earlier today and right now it's so nice to be home!) More later.

ChopinAddict, we've seen that daguerrotype before, but your copy gives a somewhat clearer view of it. My understanding was that nobody is absolutely sure whether it was Chopin or not-- if I remember the previous discussion correctly. 1846 or thereabouts, supposedly? It seems like it ought to be Chopin.

I think I've seen every extant portrait of Mme Sand, but perhaps I've missed something, because I don't remember an 1846 photo of her. Enlightenment? I'd love to see it. (I haven't personally meowed over her appearance!)

Tosser, for thoughts on the tempo of 10/3, you could check with Angela Lear, who has a definite opinion about it and plays it faster than most people. She'd probably be happy to discuss it with you.

We'd be happy to discuss things with you, too, but frankly, statements like
'I'm not trying to upset you or undermine your "authoritative" take on things (haha)' set my teeth on edge, as well as other people's, and we have certainly gotten off to a bad start. We do have extremely knowledgeable people here, and they deserve respect.

I think what Jeff Clef was trying to express is that if you choose a screen name that is an insulting sexual reference in much of the English-speaking world, it does not bode well for you. Perhaps you might like to rethink it.

Respectfully,

Elene



Elene, If I knew how to post photos here, I'd be happy to post the Sand photo for you (maybe someone could help there). Actually, Angela Lear, is the Chopin scholar I mentioned in my post above. I'll have to try contacting her.

In regard to the rest...my statement, 'I'm not trying to upset you or undermine your "authoritative" take on things (haha)' was meant geniuinely. The person to whom it was directed stated that if I were here to "nitpick" (which, as I stated, I'm not), then I would be met with adversarial foes. That, certainly, came across with an air of authority as have many of their other posts and I felt I should acknowledge this fact. Perhaps I should have edited the quotation marks (haha). It seems, for some reason, I've really touched some nerves here through a few simple, factual statements, which leads me to believe I should perhaps sit, and watch, and keep my mouth shut, and not dare voice any opinion which might be taken as contrary to convention. Tis usually a wise choice when met with condescension. By the way, my screen name is simply a nickname I've been given by several friends and in no way has any sexual connotations (after all it could imply that I'm a softball pitcher, a toss-across player, a toss the ring player, or maybe I toss off the notes while playing haha). At any rate, it's not meant to offend and if it's an insult to anyone, then it's an insult to myself.
Happy New Year to you!



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

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Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
stores #1338311 01/01/10 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by tosser
By the way, my screen name is simply a nickname I've been given by several friends and in no way has any sexual connotations (after all it could imply that I'm a softball pitcher, a toss-across player, a toss the ring player, or maybe I toss off the notes while playing haha).


Right. Let's add "glib" to your other attributes.


Slow down and do it right.
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Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
Elene #1338317 01/01/10 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Elene

ChopinAddict, we've seen that daguerrotype before, but your copy gives a somewhat clearer view of it. My understanding was that nobody is absolutely sure whether it was Chopin or not-- if I remember the previous discussion correctly. 1846 or thereabouts, supposedly? It seems like it ought to be Chopin.

Elene, I'm afriad I may have started that business about whether it was Chopin or not a couple of years ago when I posted it on Pianist Corner (before DtC even existed). I'd found it on a Polish language site and was a bit astonished since I'd seen the statement about the "overcoat" being the only photographic likeness of Chopin so many times. Since then I've found the earlier one in a couple of sources (right and wrong way round). Here's what is said about it in "Chopin a Diary in Images" (English copy of a Polish book, 1990). "Frederic Chopin. Daguerrotype by an unknown photographer, c 1847. Reproduced after a plate in the Bibliotheque Polonaise in Paris. The original was lost during World War II with the State Art Collection in Warsaw." You went to the Bibliotheque Polonaise, didn't you?


Slow down and do it right.
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Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
stores #1338350 01/01/10 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by tosser
Regarding Op. 10 No. 3, perhaps one of you can enlighten me regarding a few questions I have. Chopin's original tempo indication (surprising to most) for the etude is "Vivace". He later added "ma non troppo". As well, the autograph manuscript, bears no "forte/fortissimo" or "doppio movimento" indications from bar 46 (45 depending on the edition) and there is no "poco piu animato" indication at bar 21. All of the first and early editions I've seen include these indications as well as "Lento" replacing "Vivace". Were these additions/alterations made by the composer , or were they the work of editors/publishers (as is the argument of at least one Chopin scholar).


Dear Tosser,

Most of these changes can be ascribed to Chopin, with the exception of the fortissimo and doppio movimento in 45/46, which I think must be later additions by some editor.

There are actually two extant autographs of 10/3. The one to which you refer (owned by Robert O. Lehman; on deposit in the Pierpont Morgan Library in New York) is more of a sketch than a finished autograph, and departs in many ways from the version Chopin published. The Chopin Museum in Warsaw owns a more finished autograph, the one that was used to engrave the French first edition. But it too diverges from the version Chopin published (most notably for including an "attacca" direction at the conclusion, a deletion I've always regretted because going straight into the beginning of 10/4 without a pause makes for an electrifying effect!). These divergences resulted from Chopin making extensive changes in the printed proofs for the French edition (his corrected proof pages for 10/2 still exist, and show how heavily he revised at this stage).

Jeff Kallberg

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
Jeff Kallberg #1338411 01/01/10 11:20 AM
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Sorry to change the topic of conversation here, but I am interested in purchasing some of the Paderewski editions of Chopin's works. At the moment I only have a few of the Dover Mikuli versions and would like others for referencing etc.

Could anyone advise me on where to get these, new preferably, and how much it is likely to set me back.

Thanks.

Edit: 100th post. Can't think of anywhere better.

Last edited by Chopin4life; 01/01/10 11:21 AM.

"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." - Frédéric Chopin

"Hats off gentlemen, a genius!" - Schumann on Chopin

"Chopin is the greatest of them all, for through the piano alone he discovered everything" - Debussy on Chopin


Venables & Son 152
Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
Jeff Kallberg #1338419 01/01/10 11:41 AM
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Mr. Kallberg,

Thank you for your excellent response! I, too, think going straight into 10/4 would create an amazing effect! The first thing that comes to mind in regard to Chopin's reasoning for the "attacca" deletion is the vast disparity in technical challenges between the two etudes. Of course, however, I'm going to have to try it now! I really must wonder now what decided Chopin on making such a great change in tempo indication (Vivace to Lento)...what influenced him between the engraving stage and publication. Regarding those proofs for 10/2...I do wish he'd have thrown a red "x" through two or three choice notes...it would certainly have cut my practice time in half (hahaha!)
Thank you again for your response, sir.
T.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
Chopin4life #1338439 01/01/10 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Chopin4life
Sorry to change the topic of conversation here, but I am interested in purchasing some of the Paderewski editions of Chopin's works. At the moment I only have a few of the Dover Mikuli versions and would like others for referencing etc.

Could anyone advise me on where to get these, new preferably, and how much it is likely to set me back.

Thanks.

Edit: 100th post. Can't think of anywhere better.


Good question. At one time, Dover, published reproductions of the Paderewski, but I'm pretty sure they don't any longer. Those old Paderewski editions I have with the tan cover and orange lettering don't seem to be around anywhere either. What's interesting about the Paderewski, is that the Mikuli, was one of the sources used in preparing the edition. There are, however, quite distinct differences between the two. If you run across them, I'd be very interested in knowing where you found them. Good luck.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
-Frycek #1338451 01/01/10 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by -Frycek
Right way round
[Linked Image]


I'm curious as to how we know which way round is right and wrong.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
stores #1338462 01/01/10 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by tosser
Originally Posted by Jeff Clef
I thought that name, "Tosser," sounded a little familiar, though it hasn't entered the vernacular in America. A look-up is revealing.

I predict a short future for this "Junior Member."


What the heck is that supposed to mean? Why would my future be any shorter than anyone elses? I've simply made a few factual statements...if you don't like them don't read them...sorry. God, there's some incredibly touchy people here.



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Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
Horowitzian #1338502 01/01/10 01:54 PM
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Equally effective:

[Linked Image]

grin

Steven

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
sotto voce #1338515 01/01/10 02:11 PM
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Oh man, Steven, it's a damn good thing I wasn't drinking anything when I viewed your post just now!

[Linked Image]


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
Horowitzian #1338527 01/01/10 02:49 PM
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Steven, I had just been thinking that it's important to remember that when someone's behavior bothers me, they are providing a good MIRROR for something I don't like about myself or haven't yet dealt with.

So, a blanket apology for any arrogance I've shown here in the past two years, and a solemn promise to keep trying to do better.

Elene

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
Elene #1338566 01/01/10 04:26 PM
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I used to think that, Elena, and it does have its useful aspects. The concept is not infinitely elastic, though, and I also find that a knowledge of the firm boundaries has its place in my understanding of life.

Excellent intention for the new year--- we can all do better. But you are the least of offenders, surely.


Clef

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
Horowitzian #1338574 01/01/10 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by tosser
Originally Posted by Jeff Clef
I thought that name, "Tosser," sounded a little familiar, though it hasn't entered the vernacular in America. A look-up is revealing.

I predict a short future for this "Junior Member."


What the heck is that supposed to mean? Why would my future be any shorter than anyone elses? I've simply made a few factual statements...if you don't like them don't read them...sorry. God, there's some incredibly touchy people here.


I just was thinking that "touchy" isn't exactly the best choice of words for someone who who calls themself a tosser. grin




Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
Horowitzian #1338597 01/01/10 05:07 PM
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WWCD?

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
Elene #1338605 01/01/10 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Elene
WWCD?


LOL @ WWCD! Having little patience for fools (and known to have quite a temper at times) he'd probably tell all of us to get stuffed. I do hope, he'd clear some things up for us first, though.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
stores #1338611 01/01/10 05:27 PM
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I expect that he would tell us to get stuffed in the most refined and elegant way, so that we'd hardly know what hit us.

I am hoping for a return to our usual level of refinement, s'il vous plait.

Elene

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
Elene #1338612 01/01/10 05:29 PM
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With this n00b in the picture, I'm afraid it's a long shot. sick


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
Elene #1338631 01/01/10 05:49 PM
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Let's try, shall we? Before we get moderated?

Elene
(Self-Appointed Propriety Cop)

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
Horowitzian #1338632 01/01/10 05:50 PM
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Are we all fools, then? Dang, who knew.

Steven

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