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Re: rythm
Michael Darnton #1338131 12/31/09 07:33 PM
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In this context, "triplet" is the correct nomenclature.

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: rythm
Orange Soda King #1338132 12/31/09 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Did anyone check out my spoilers on the first page?


I did, indeed. Concentrating on the exercises that relate directly to the Etude under discussion, I found your "spoilers" quite brilliant! I saved them, printed them out, and will insert a copy into my Chopin Etudes volume in the event that ...!

Thank you!

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: rythm
BruceD #1338137 12/31/09 07:37 PM
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So, Bruce, you're saying this music has three against two? Because I'm reading that it's a 1:1 ratio all the way.

Nice definition of triplet here:
http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory15.htm

Re: rythm
Orange Soda King #1338140 12/31/09 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Did anyone check out my spoilers on the first page?

I did, and this is still the first page.

Re: rythm
Damon #1338144 12/31/09 07:44 PM
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It depends. Not everybody sees the same number of posts per page. You can set it differently in the preferences. For me, this is quite a ways down page 2.


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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Re: rythm
Michael Darnton #1338149 12/31/09 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael Darnton
So, Bruce, you're saying this music has three against two? Because I'm reading that it's a 1:1 ratio all the way.


Eleanor Bailie [1] says it better than I :

The ostensible difficulty is that of the synchronising of the differently 'paced' LH and RH triplets, which create a continual cross-rhythm effect. However, provided that the rhythmic and melodic shape of each hand is thoroughly studied alone[2], and the shapes maintained when the hands are put together, it will be found that the individual flow of the two hands, apparently at cross-purposes, will merge quite happily - any conscious manipulation of the cross-rhythm will be unnecessary and indeed disastrous.

Cortot says [3] : "Before combining the two hands for the final practise of these pages, it will be necessary to get accustomed to the minor difficulties arising from the superposition of two different rhythms :
[illustration showing four groups of eighth-note triplets over two groups of quarter-note triplets, with accents on the first of each triplet in both hands]
the triplets in crotchets should be placed strictly regularly in spite of the discreet part played by the left hand as it is they which create its individual rhythm."

[1] Eleanor Bailie. The Pianist's Repertoire : Chopin, A Graded Practical Guide. London, Kahn & Averill, 1998 (p. 422)
[2] my emphasis.
[3] Chopin : 12 Studies Op 25 (Study edition commented by Alfred Cortot, translated by M. Parkinson.) Paris, Salabert, 2000 (Original copyright date: 1914).

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: rythm
Michael Darnton #1338166 12/31/09 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael Darnton
So, Bruce, you're saying this music has three against two? Because I'm reading that it's a 1:1 ratio all the way.

Nice definition of triplet here:
http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory15.htm

Yes, it has three against two. There are two quarter notes in the right hand (divided into two sets of triplets) coincidental with three quarter notes in the left hand.

Steven

Re: rythm
sotto voce #1338210 12/31/09 10:57 PM
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As Steven says, but put another way :

For every two quarter notes in the right hand (written as triplet eighth-notes) there are three quarter notes (played in the time of two quarter-notes) in the left hand.

This is not meant to contradict - I hope - what I stated in my first post, where I was commenting solely on how the notes in the right hand coincide with those of the left. In that post, I stated that "simply" there are two notes in the right hand for every note in the left. Once that is mastered, then the fun begins, but as the quote from Bailie points out, it shouldn't be as complex as it initially seems.

Did you see OSK's helpful spoilers?

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: rythm
BruceD #1338223 12/31/09 11:30 PM
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Ah, I went and actually looked at the music. 3:2 it is. Sorry--I should have done that first, rather than listening to what people were saying. :-)

Re: rythm
Michael Darnton #1338232 01/01/10 12:09 AM
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I don't hear 3-against-2 at all, and I don't understand why anyone would even consider that. Since the piece is written in cut time, I'd think it's 6-against-3. If I were to speculate on Chopin's "intent" of this etude, I wouldn't think rhythm would be the focus. To me, this is a study in fast R.H. runs with tricky fingering choices.


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Re: rythm
AZNpiano #1338245 01/01/10 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
I don't hear 3-against-2 at all, and I don't understand why anyone would even consider that. Since the piece is written in cut time, I'd think it's 6-against-3. If I were to speculate on Chopin's "intent" of this etude, I wouldn't think rhythm would be the focus. [...]


May I suggest that you have a look at it again; better yet, try playing it.

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: rythm
BruceD #1338263 01/01/10 01:52 AM
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Succinctly put BruceD ... "there are two notes in the right hand for every note in the left."

It takes a while for some of our respected company to get past the notation "hobgoblin triplet" detour ... and cotton on to the continuous flow of the Presto RH single-note outline ...

Thanks for your down-to-earth comment to one of our catch-ups

" may I suggest that you have a look at it again; better yet, try playing it."

Happy New Year chaps!!


Re: rythm
btb #1338391 01/01/10 10:37 AM
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My comment to AZNpiano was not meant to be as flippant as some may take it. While the note values show that the putting together of the two hands is "simply" two notes in the right against one in the left, the final realization is not as simple as that. For, if one is to play this as written - and how else would one play it? - one needs to think two triplets in the right hand against one triplet in the left hand. The result is that the first note of the second triplet in the right comes between the second and third notes of the triplet in the left, and even lightly accenting the right hand triplets brings one up against the two-against-three rhythmic challenge of this piece.

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: rythm
BruceD #1338435 01/01/10 12:05 PM
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When I originally learned this piece, I played it the "simple" way: 2 notes in the RH per each note in the LH. But when I finally re-learned it the way Chopin notated it, it resulted in the melody smoothing out and becoming nearly pulse-less, sort of like floating outside the time signature (to borrow a phrase from Kreisler, I think). Perhaps that was Chopin's intent?

Re: rythm
ChrisKeys #1338457 01/01/10 12:52 PM
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BruceD, was that sarcasm or are you serious? I mean, I think they make sense but I see how they may be very confusing...

But it is definitely more than just 6 against 3.

Last edited by Orange Soda King; 01/01/10 12:56 PM.
Re: rythm
Orange Soda King #1338471 01/01/10 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
BruceD, was that sarcasm or are you serious? I mean, I think they make sense but I see how they may be very confusing...

But it is definitely more than just 6 against 3.


No, not meant to be at all sarcastic, although perhaps my hyperbolic use of "brilliant" led you to feel sarcasm. I was, nevertheless, impressed with the practicality of your comments and suggested exercises. Moreover, the exercises showed - without one's having to struggle with the notes - that the Etude is, as you say, more than just 6 against 3.

Again: thanks!

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BruceD
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Re: rythm
ChrisKeys #1338498 01/01/10 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris W_dup1
When I originally learned this piece, I played it the "simple" way: 2 notes in the RH per each note in the LH. But when I finally re-learned it the way Chopin notated it, it resulted in the melody smoothing out and becoming nearly pulse-less, sort of like floating outside the time signature (to borrow a phrase from Kreisler, I think). Perhaps that was Chopin's intent?

Yes -- that seems to be a good way to put it together, and the Cortot recording seems to follow it. I think the Arrau performance follows the indication in a more thorough and complex way, but what you said "works."

I don't think it's quite what Chopin "meant," though, because there would seem to have been easier and more obvious ways of indicating it -- but it works. What doesn't work (not really) is just playing 6-against-3 in the 'normal' way, or thinking that there's no issue.

Re: rythm
Orange Soda King #1338501 01/01/10 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
BruceD, was that sarcasm or are you serious? I mean, I think they make sense but I see how they may be very confusing...

His post looked pretty serious to me......

Re: rythm
Mark_C #1338513 01/01/10 02:05 PM
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Oh, awesome! I feel useful (hehe).

After looking at the score for a while, I started pondering why Chopin didn't write the piece in a 3-based meter instead. Then I saw that with triplet 8th and quarter notes, there were multiple X-against-Y rhythms going on, and in a 3-based meter, the emphasis would be on ONLY the 1st and 4th eighth notes or the 1st, 3rd, and 5th eighth notes, which is less interesting. In 4-based meter, there is MUCH more rhythmically you can explore, as well as it is much more interesting with all these different rhythms going on.

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