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Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
-Frycek #1337809 12/31/09 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by -Frycek
Except George was in her 60's in that photograph. When Chopin knew her she looked more like that portrait over Cher. I agree Kathy Najimi looks like she'd make an excellent George. (BTW I college I lived in the Language House. My minor was French. I was a plumpish dark brunette who was always scribbling and often worn riding boots and one of my Dad's old army fatigue jackets. Inevitably the French students nicknamed me George Sand. The nickname stuck through grad school.)


While you're quite right that the photograph of Dupin, has her at 60 (the photo is from 1864), the woman Chopin, knew, certainly, was not quite as alluring as the above painting in question shows. She was 33 when Chopin met her and their relationship lasted until 1847. If I knew how to add photos here, I could post a photograph taken of her in 1846 (which is much more realistic than the resemblance rendered in the painting).



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

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Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
stores #1337825 12/31/09 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by tosser
Originally Posted by -Frycek
Ragnhilde, what a very sensitive post. Thank you for sharing with us. Even at the darkest times some softening hope sometimes shines out. The church where Chopin's heart is enshrined was destroyed during the bombing of Warsaw. It was a German officer who found the intact urn containing Chopin's heart in the rubble. The Nazi's hated Chopin as an icon of Polish patriotism and had blown up his statue. The urn containing his heart would have been quite a prize for the Reich, but the officer was a music lover and quietly, secretly found a Polish priest and gave him the urn for safekeeping.


I hate to break it to you, but this story is quite a lot of romanticised myth. In reality, just after the outbreak of the Warsaw Uprising, the urn containing Chopin's heart was moved to the town of Milanowek, where it was kept between September 1944 and October 1945. The Church of the Holy Cross (where Chopin's heart resides), though badly damaged during the Uprising, was not obliterated to rubble by the Germans until 1945.


I hope you also intend to breat the news to the director of Poland's National Fryderyk Chopin Institute. Chopin's Heart



Slow down and do it right.
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Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
stores #1337827 12/31/09 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by tosser
Originally Posted by -Frycek
Except George was in her 60's in that photograph. When Chopin knew her she looked more like that portrait over Cher. I agree Kathy Najimi looks like she'd make an excellent George. (BTW I college I lived in the Language House. My minor was French. I was a plumpish dark brunette who was always scribbling and often worn riding boots and one of my Dad's old army fatigue jackets. Inevitably the French students nicknamed me George Sand. The nickname stuck through grad school.)


While you're quite right that the photograph of Dupin, has her at 60 (the photo is from 1864), the woman Chopin, knew, certainly, was not quite as alluring as the above painting in question shows. She was 33 when Chopin met her and their relationship lasted until 1847. If I knew how to add photos here, I could post a photograph taken of her in 1846 (which is much more realistic than the resemblance rendered in the painting).


We are all of us also quite aware of how George Sand looked during her lifetime. I doubt there exists a likeness of her by pen, pencil, paint or camera which hasn't been posted here at some point. Her appearence has been meowed over most unkindly at great lenght and with great relish.

I do hope you intend your contributions to extend beyond nitpicking over years old posts. You may discover you've decided to patronize some formidable adversaries.


Slow down and do it right.
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Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
-Frycek #1337886 12/31/09 01:29 PM
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Dear tosser:

Welcome. thumb

Yes, Frycek is quite correct in that our thread has just about covered everything there is to cover about Chopin, his music, his life, etc. And we certainly do not expect nor could you possibly read over all the posts written here. It would take up too much of your practice time at the piano.

But we are always open to differences of opinions should you ever find yourself disagreeing with anything stated here.

We are honored to have the world's foremost expert on all that is Chopin with us, Dr. Jeff Kallberg.

If you have any questions that you think might not have been asked here, please feel free to inquire. You are almost guaranteed a valid response. smile

Happy New Year,
Kathleen



Chopin’s music is all I need to look into my soul.
Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
-Frycek #1338096 12/31/09 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by -Frycek
Originally Posted by tosser
Originally Posted by -Frycek
Ragnhilde, what a very sensitive post. Thank you for sharing with us. Even at the darkest times some softening hope sometimes shines out. The church where Chopin's heart is enshrined was destroyed during the bombing of Warsaw. It was a German officer who found the intact urn containing Chopin's heart in the rubble. The Nazi's hated Chopin as an icon of Polish patriotism and had blown up his statue. The urn containing his heart would have been quite a prize for the Reich, but the officer was a music lover and quietly, secretly found a Polish priest and gave him the urn for safekeeping.


I hate to break it to you, but this story is quite a lot of romanticised myth. In reality, just after the outbreak of the Warsaw Uprising, the urn containing Chopin's heart was moved to the town of Milanowek, where it was kept between September 1944 and October 1945. The Church of the Holy Cross (where Chopin's heart resides), though badly damaged during the Uprising, was not obliterated to rubble by the Germans until 1945.


I hope you also intend to breat the news to the director of Poland's National Fryderyk Chopin Institute. Chopin's Heart



My point was that the setting of your story is quite wrong. The Church was NOT (it's historical fact, which anyone can look up) destroyed until 1945, so General von dem Bach, would not have found the urn amidst a pile of rubble. The Church WAS (as I pointed out and the article you've linked supports this) badly damaged at the beginning of the Warsaw Uprising in August 1944 and the urn was rescued in September and taken to Milanowek.
I'm not trying to upset you or undermine your "authoritative" take on things (haha). I'm just stating some facts, since, quite often, details (which can be very important), get lost amongst the passing on of a story and that is how we end up with overly-romanticised tales concerning historical facts.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
-Frycek #1338101 12/31/09 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by -Frycek
Originally Posted by tosser
Originally Posted by -Frycek
Except George was in her 60's in that photograph. When Chopin knew her she looked more like that portrait over Cher. I agree Kathy Najimi looks like she'd make an excellent George. (BTW I college I lived in the Language House. My minor was French. I was a plumpish dark brunette who was always scribbling and often worn riding boots and one of my Dad's old army fatigue jackets. Inevitably the French students nicknamed me George Sand. The nickname stuck through grad school.)


While you're quite right that the photograph of Dupin, has her at 60 (the photo is from 1864), the woman Chopin, knew, certainly, was not quite as alluring as the above painting in question shows. She was 33 when Chopin met her and their relationship lasted until 1847. If I knew how to add photos here, I could post a photograph taken of her in 1846 (which is much more realistic than the resemblance rendered in the painting).


We are all of us also quite aware of how George Sand looked during her lifetime. I doubt there exists a likeness of her by pen, pencil, paint or camera which hasn't been posted here at some point. Her appearence has been meowed over most unkindly at great lenght and with great relish.

I do hope you intend your contributions to extend beyond nitpicking over years old posts. You may discover you've decided to patronize some formidable adversaries.


Once again, I'm simply pointing out that Chopin, would not have known a Dupin, who matched the resemblance found in the painting posted. Once again, details matter, because upon viewing said painting one could ALMOST say "well, I CAN sort of see what he'd have seen in her" (haha), when, in reality, the painting is of a younger Sand, than Chopin would have met, and certainly, a more romanticised image of her altogether.
I'm not at all nitpicking...I'm simply inserting some detail. The attitude that says "you may discover you've decided to patronize some formidable adversaries", I think, says a great deal. I learned quite some time ago that it's best to never challenge those who deem themselves "experts"...it's a losing battle and not worth the time. That said, as I stated, I'm not "challenging" anyone and find it odd that you would take it as such, but I do think I understand why you found it so.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
loveschopintoomuch #1338105 12/31/09 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by loveschopintoomuch
Dear tosser:

Welcome. thumb

Yes, Frycek is quite correct in that our thread has just about covered everything there is to cover about Chopin, his music, his life, etc. And we certainly do not expect nor could you possibly read over all the posts written here. It would take up too much of your practice time at the piano.

But we are always open to differences of opinions should you ever find yourself disagreeing with anything stated here.

We are honored to have the world's foremost expert on all that is Chopin with us, Dr. Jeff Kallberg.

If you have any questions that you think might not have been asked here, please feel free to inquire. You are almost guaranteed a valid response. smile

Happy New Year,
Kathleen



Yes, I've seen that there is quite a lot to be read here. Fantastic. I'll have a great time poring over it when I can. I do know who Mr. Kallberg, is and it's great to know that he's around. I've not yet read his book, but hope to in the future at some point.
Happy New Year to you as well.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
stores #1338115 12/31/09 07:19 PM
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I thought that name, "Tosser," sounded a little familiar, though it hasn't entered the vernacular in America. A look-up is revealing.

I predict a short future for this "Junior Member."


Clef

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
stores #1338120 12/31/09 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by tosser
I hate to break it to you, but this story is quite a lot of romanticised myth.


I'm perfectly willing to be instructed in the historical facts of the matter as even those Poles who should be most reliable often willingly let fact take a back seat to a good story when it comes to Chopin. Forgive me, though if I find the manner of your introduction of the topic snide, patronizing and disrepectful.


Slow down and do it right.
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Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
Jeff Clef #1338134 12/31/09 07:35 PM
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Has this photo already been posted here? It has been discussed in another thread, but I cannot find it here... It is so beautiful...
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Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
ChopinAddict #1338154 12/31/09 08:08 PM
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I thought i'd add this here, a deal over at Amazon for the 99 most Essential Chopin for a $1.99. I wasn't sure where else to post it. It may be of use to someone.

Essential Chopin


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Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
Elene #1338156 12/31/09 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Elene
Yes, it does seem like "funeral march" is a genre in itself.

But I think a composer should be able to call a piece anything he or she wishes.

Of course, when you send a piece, or a poem, or a story, or whatever bit of art out into the world, you have little or no control over its ultimate destiny, and if it touches people they will often mess with it in some way.

Elene


You are so right.... frown



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Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
ChopinAddict #1338159 12/31/09 08:17 PM
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Right way round
[Linked Image]


Slow down and do it right.
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Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
Jeff Clef #1338206 12/31/09 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Clef
I thought that name, "Tosser," sounded a little familiar, though it hasn't entered the vernacular in America. A look-up is revealing.

I predict a short future for this "Junior Member."


What the heck is that supposed to mean? Why would my future be any shorter than anyone elses? I've simply made a few factual statements...if you don't like them don't read them...sorry. God, there's some incredibly touchy people here.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
stores #1338211 12/31/09 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by tosser
Originally Posted by Jeff Clef
I thought that name, "Tosser," sounded a little familiar, though it hasn't entered the vernacular in America. A look-up is revealing.

I predict a short future for this "Junior Member."


What the heck is that supposed to mean?


He probably meant you would become "full member" soon.

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
-Frycek #1338212 12/31/09 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by -Frycek
Originally Posted by tosser
I hate to break it to you, but this story is quite a lot of romanticised myth.


I'm perfectly willing to be instructed in the historical facts of the matter as even those Poles who should be most reliable often willingly let fact take a back seat to a good story when it comes to Chopin. Forgive me, though if I find the manner of your introduction of the topic snide, patronizing and disrepectful.


No forgiveness needed. I'm not quite sure what you found snide, patronizing or disrespectful. The intent of my opening line, was not personally directed. It's a simple statement. I tend not to look upon myself with TOO great a regard or put TOO much stock into that which I know, since, certainly, there are many, many others with MUCH more knowledge than I, and by so doing I don't feel "attacked" whenever someone sets forth a different version of that which I've held to be true.
Happy New Year to you!



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
LisztAddict #1338213 12/31/09 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by LisztAddict
Originally Posted by tosser
Originally Posted by Jeff Clef
I thought that name, "Tosser," sounded a little familiar, though it hasn't entered the vernacular in America. A look-up is revealing.

I predict a short future for this "Junior Member."


What the heck is that supposed to mean?


He probably meant you would become "full member" soon.


Oh, I see. Ok then.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
-Frycek #1338216 12/31/09 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by -Frycek
Right way round
[Linked Image]


I've read some varying reports on this image. It's a daguerreotype, yes? Do you know by how many years it precedes the more famous 1849 daguerreotype? The reason I ask is that I've read there were only a few years between the images and, if so, then Chopin's health, clearly, affected his appearance greatly, in a rather short period of time.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
stores #1338226 12/31/09 11:37 PM
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Regarding Op. 10 No. 3, perhaps one of you can enlighten me regarding a few questions I have. Chopin's original tempo indication (surprising to most) for the etude is "Vivace". He later added "ma non troppo". As well, the autograph manuscript, bears no "forte/fortissimo" or "doppio movimento" indications from bar 46 (45 depending on the edition) and there is no "poco piu animato" indication at bar 21. All of the first and early editions I've seen include these indications as well as "Lento" replacing "Vivace". Were these additions/alterations made by the composer , or were they the work of editors/publishers (as is the argument of at least one Chopin scholar).



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
stores #1338241 01/01/10 12:25 AM
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ShchenshleeVAYgo noVAYgo ROkoo, LA and everybody. Sort of.

Bonne nouvelle année à tout le monde. (Ah, that was so much easier!)

Jeff, thanks for your generous posting and linking about Op. 35. I've downloaded your 2001 article but haven't read much of it yet. Also hunted down clips of the march from La Gazza Ladra. My idea of holiday fun-- good grief. (We were out earlier today and right now it's so nice to be home!) More later.

ChopinAddict, we've seen that daguerrotype before, but your copy gives a somewhat clearer view of it. My understanding was that nobody is absolutely sure whether it was Chopin or not-- if I remember the previous discussion correctly. 1846 or thereabouts, supposedly? It seems like it ought to be Chopin.

I think I've seen every extant portrait of Mme Sand, but perhaps I've missed something, because I don't remember an 1846 photo of her. Enlightenment? I'd love to see it. (I haven't personally meowed over her appearance!)

Tosser, for thoughts on the tempo of 10/3, you could check with Angela Lear, who has a definite opinion about it and plays it faster than most people. She'd probably be happy to discuss it with you.

We'd be happy to discuss things with you, too, but frankly, statements like
'I'm not trying to upset you or undermine your "authoritative" take on things (haha)' set my teeth on edge, as well as other people's, and we have certainly gotten off to a bad start. We do have extremely knowledgeable people here, and they deserve respect.

I think what Jeff Clef was trying to express is that if you choose a screen name that is an insulting sexual reference in much of the English-speaking world, it does not bode well for you. Perhaps you might like to rethink it.

Respectfully,

Elene


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