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I nominate this as the prime candidate for the most tedious thread of 2009. Having just (s)lumbered through this thread, I can only agree with you. This one has it all: speculation on the hidden meaning of a bastardized machine translation, 'opportunity knocks' posting from industry voices, Chen Hailun's rebirth as Helen, and a dreary mix of ignorance and bias. An excellent melange!! The link to the diary of the traveling tuner/tech originally provided by pianistical and supplied in this thread by Schwammerl is a bright spot though. +1
Musician, Singer, Teacher, Humorist, Dad...
“I have an inferiority complex, but it’s not a very good one.†― Steven Wright
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To those interested in an interview w/ Paulello, one of the designers of Hailun's Wendl & Lung 288 see this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWs3CYWhYDQSome of the other videos by this youtube user is quite interesting. One can see what's going on inside the Hailun factory (ie: vigorous testing).
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That's a good link Meowmix. It's been up before, but it never hurts to give it more exposure. The conversation with Frank Emerson is informative as well. If that one's not available in the hailunpianos listings, it can be found by searching sauterpianos in the search box. I think many of these Hailun tidbits got into sauterpianos youtube offerings because of an effort to have Hailun pianos distributed in the US by Sauter's distribution channel. Don't know where that stands now though.
BTW, Are you in the cat food business?
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That's a good link Meowmix. It's been up before, but it never hurts to give it more exposure. The conversation with Frank Emerson is informative as well. If that one's not available in the hailunpianos listings, it can be found by searching sauterpianos in the search box. I think many of these Hailun tidbits got into sauterpianos youtube offerings because of an effort to have Hailun pianos distributed in the US by Sauter's distribution channel. Don't know where that stands now though.
BTW, Are you in the cat food business? I am a human cat food tester. I ensure that the food every feline receives is tip, top grade and get paid for it.... Just kidding I am not not affiliated with the cat food industry in any way. I get the name meowmix from my Chinese name, which is Miao (sounds like meow) and 52 was my jersey #.
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William, I suspect meowmix52 is not in the cat food business: otherwise he would be posting in the adult beginners violin forum?! schwammerl.
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I think you should talk to Mr. Hailun Chen as you seem to have good ideas what he should do to reverse these impressions and convince the Chinese people otherwise. What I was talking about before has nothing to do with the piano industry by itself but all things happening in China today. Not to be confused with someone often misunderstood as "promoting China" it is paramount for all of us today to come to terms with the enormous economic, social and political changes occurring in China right now. A good source for things happening is the German television channel "Deutsche Welle" [DW] which is readily available anywhere in the world today - one hour German, next in English. http://www.dw-world.de/Anybody watching there will get a quick sense of the scope of what's going on these days involving international business in China. Billion dollar contracts are being made there right now by all sorts of [mostly] European companies knowing full well China' s market will determine the economic future and well being of virtually of each Western country. The Chinese know this full well, and one doesn't have to have a PhD in Sociology/Sinology to understand that such development will and already *is* affecting their national psyche in a very major way. With more to come... The rub off IMHO is this: built the very best China can't touch or do itself - or you may well get replaced. Or if lucky - *bought*. http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5051420,00.html Norbert
Last edited by Norbert; 12/29/09 12:25 AM.
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Dear Norbert, I have no idea why anyone would accuse you of promoting China. Frankly, I'm shocked. I'm now offering free shipment to my special Canadian customers plus an additiional 50% off on cases of my best quality Chairman Mao Hats. That's 24 in green with the red star and 24 in blue(his favorite color) with red enamel star. Also available are my fancy green jade Chairman Mao busts and for a limited time only, my beautiful red Mao alarm clocks. Sorry, Mao t-shirts on back order till March. Hurry while supplies last!!! Mike Carr Everything Mao
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Norbert's message about China's emergence has been a consistent one regarding commerce: ignore at your peril or engage to your benefit. He's right. Available evidence indicates that the piano industry is moving toward his thinking although it's not clear in some cases if the motives are quick-buck short-term profit or long-term survival strategy.
Fixation on Mao is odd in 2009 unless one grew up on the premises and was personally victimized by the Cultural Revolution or was raised in a fallout shelter in the US.
I wonder if some Chinese are stuck on Nixon.
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Turandot,
Fair enough. I was adding balance to Norbert’s recent infomercial binge that seems to ignore one fact, an awfully big elephant he’s hiding in the closet. One also ignores historical and political realities at one’s peril. I voted for Nixon four times.
P.S. For this week only I have a special on the four pack of my dreary mélange pies, shipped to you overnight in pressurized containers (keeps the mélange from falling).
Mike Carr
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To all...
As far as piano companies marketing their products and whether or not Hailun is or is not THE best seller in China - what does that really say about the quality of a brand as a whole? !
Not much IMHO.... for the following reason:
No matter what the industry, you will find manufacturer's who are sincerely concerned with their products being of a decent quality. Of these manufacturer's there will typically be 2 distinct approaches in their marketing plan: Firstly, there are those who wine and dine, schmooz and try to gain popularity by associating with previous successful enterprises or famous people. Then you have the second marketing approach. It relies on the passion of the owner (founder) and their love for building and developing their product. Instead of trying to be the most popular and 'promoting' their way to the top, they quietly go about their business and allow for a slower, quiet type of growth over the long run. I would wager that most of the early quality European piano makers that are still around today were built on the second marketing approach, rather then the first. It is a shame that some of todays successors of these fine brands are beginning to adopt more of the first above mentioned marketing approach. (Many retailers jumping on this trend for the 'ride to riches' at the same time).
For those of you who are obsessed with Hailun's activity in China, I can tell you that I was in Germany this past September and asked some relatives how much they new of Steingraeber & Sohne. They seem to have heard the name but couldn't tell me where the factory was or any specific details. I suppose that means the rest of the world should stay away from that brand, correct? Funny, Steingraeber is arguably the best piano in the world and as far as I know the ONLY of the age old brands that did not cut any staff, hours or production during this past tough economic time.
What Hailun has achieved is actually quite remarkable. Please name another piano brand that has started up in the last few decades from scratch, is as widely accepted globally as Hailun, and bears the name of its owner. Oh lets throw in the 15 year warranty and structural lifetime warranty Hailun offers for good measure!
As tired of I am of this thread, bring on your best replies.
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China as a whole is a threat and opportunity at the same time.
One has to choose which side is better to operate from, I would say 'opportunity'.
The smart ones are raising the bar to such an extent that they become immune or at least less affected from the onslought. Those who have chosen this path happen to do quite well - even now.
Others hope to get by or survive with wishful thinking, postering, make belief and accusations of sorts.
Unfortunately this won't be any more effective as strip searching a mother with four kids at the airport hoping to keep Alkaida out.
Norbert
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To all...
What Hailun has achieved is actually quite remarkable. Please name another piano brand that has started up in the last few decades from scratch, is as widely accepted globally as Hailun, and bears the name of its owner. Oh lets throw in the 15 year warranty and structural lifetime warranty Hailun offers for good measure! Fazioli is the only other one I can think of right now... There are the few small scale builders like Stuart and Overs, but they're not really "factories" in the traditional sense.
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"As tired of I am of this thread, bring on your best replies." PositivesThe pianos compete extremely well in their price range. The pianos can compete effectively well above their price range when the retailer selling them is willing to put in the effort to prep them. The pianos offer a different tonal palette from earlier pianos from China. The percussive attack is more subdued, in no way shrill or strident. There is a little bloom. The resulting tone is more pleasing to many Western piano shoppers. Admittedly, the tone cannot be manipulated to the extent that it can on the truly great pianos, but at the price who has a right to complain? The original China-made actions are even, responsive, and a good middle-of-the-road approach in terms of touch response. They compete well on their own without the need of Euro upgrades. The maker, while relatively new, has a long history in producing piano components and has become a leading source of parts to piano makers outside of Asia who produce high-ticket items. The owner is a hands-on capitalist interested in every facet of his business. The owner has lofty goals and is willing to state them. The owner is willing to learn and incorporate ideas from experienced piano designers from a number of countries (Veletsky, Emerson, Paullelo, Ibach) The company has increased production annually. The company is a private enterprise and does not rely on infusions of capital from state support. The company takes good care of its production workers and has many programs to upgrade their skills. Negatives Marketing of the pianos outside of China has lacked a clear strategy. In the OP's home market on this thread, Singapore, Hailun pianos are available with at least three different fallboard names. What differences among the three may exist are difficult to reckon, much like the differences between Hailun and Wendl&Lung models in the US market despite huge differences in stated prices. Distribution in the US market has been problematic. Many shoppers who would like to sample a Hailun do not know where to find a dealer and get little help from the company's distribution network. What's wrong with this thread?The pianos are not being evaluated fairly. In fact, they are not being evaluated at all. Perceptions of the pianos range from Chinaphobia at one end to the OP's comment that the interview he cited changed his perception of the pianos. Obviously, neither fear of China's emerging status as a superpower, fear of the supposed bad intent of its middle class, or OTOH a favorable impression of the maker from one of his interviews should replace an honest consideration of the merits of the pianos. What's useful in a general way in this thread?Norbert's links, the links supplied by Schwammerl and Meowmix, and your post, specifically your comment about some of the European makers resting on their laurels. That situation is teased here often, but doesn't get the play that it should IMO. What was pertinent to Hailun pianos in this thread?Nothing
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I just crawled out of my bunker for some fresh air and noticed your post. As far as Hailun pianos, I’ll agree with you. Good value. But when you start portraying Hailun as some johhny come lately george washington/rockefeller/human rights activist, I’m lost. And if what you’re saying is that Hailun is somehow operating free of regime restraints, you’re lost. I just read Norbert’s post and he’s lost. I’m just not sure where. He did admit China might be a threat so I’m making progress. When he started in on the strip searches I started cooking a dozen of my famous dreary mélange pies to send him. Anyway, are you guys going to stay up tonight and watch that german tv show about china and take notes? Sounds like fun. Granted, Mao would be turning over in his grave if he could see current hijinks. And Nixon would be turning over in his. He and Henry always thought if they gave China enough big macs and cokes they’d start the great democratic counter revolution, race each other to the bank, and Nixon could finally sheep-dip watergate. I don’t think those two ever envisioned communist billionaires or capitalistic communism, the concept was hardly a notion, even when Henry was at Harvard. Not the first time they tripped up, not the first time they got hustled. I’ve read over some of your posts and now I understand what I didn’t before. You’re a China expert. You’ve probably taken a few tours, been to a few piano factories, read all of Pearl S. Buck you could get your hands on. Nothing wrong with that. It’s harmless enough. A bit of advice, though, innocent pastimes taken on late in life can turn downright sinister. That’s all for now. Gotta get back in the bunker.
Last edited by Mike Carr; 12/30/09 05:08 AM.
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As far as Hailun pianos, I’ll agree with you. Good value.
That's really all that you need to say, unless you are willing to jettison the personal blog style posting and explain in detail how Hailun pianos stack up in terms of tone, touch, and build quality, and sheepdip into what makes them good value. My post was a response to newgeneration's request, not to your meanderings. I assume that newgeneration has found the thread tedious for the same reasons that I have: a lack of content about the pianos themselves. Your comments here are humorous and good-natured, but autobiographical and ultimately egocentric. You assume that the melange I referred to was made from ingredients supplied by you, and have taken possession of the melange with your melange pies in pressurized containers. Your responses also indicate that you feel you are making progress in changing Norbert's Weltanschauung. Since a Weltanschauung is based on one's particular perspective on the world based on one's own particular experience, I am quite sure that you overestimate the impact of your Maoist paraphernalia and personal voting history on Norbert. If you would like to engage in a discussion of how China's prospects for international commerce are benefiting from China's huge investments in infrastructure, for example how the new high-speed train (1070 km in 3 hours) between Wuhan and Guangzhou benefits the Pearl River delta manufacturing economy, or how the 2008 opening of the Hangzhou Bay Bridge from Shanghai to Ningbo assists Euro piano makers making the pilgrimage to Hailun/Ningbo by cutting the drive from 400 km to 80km, then we could certainly do that. Perhaps we could also compare China's investment in infrastructure with our shared perceptions of CALTRANS' success in squeezing traffic on major California freeways with orange cones while its workers take extended roadside coffee breaks. Or perhaps we might compare China's emerging rail network with the sterling efforts of AMTRAK to mate reasonably current trains with hopelessly outdated track and somehow keep those reasonably current trains reasonably clean and those ancient tracks and track crossings reasonably safe. Perhaps we could also factor in the role of Germany's Siemens and France's Bombardier and Alstom in allowing China to surpass Japan and France in rail travel speed, and then tie that factoid to Norbert's frequent mention of how German and European industry, from beer-making and agricultural technology to alternative energy sources and advanced electronics, has chosen to engage China while US industry persists in pissing and moaning about the unfairness of it all. However, such a discussion thread is probably a poor fit on a piano forum, and such a discussion should involve facts, not phobic ruminations from a bunker.
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You’ve called me a rube, I dropped from another planet, a xenophobe, globally naïve, factually parched, persuading a german when I know damn well if you see a german dousing his house with kerosene the only thing to do is hand them a book of matches and call the fire department . . .
But really, an egotistical meandering memoirist, with a blog style? A blog style?
Damn. That hurts. It really does. That cuts right down to the quick. I’m feeling dizzy. Give me a moment. (Now where’d I put that damn hanky?)
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You’ve called me a rube, I dropped from another planet, a xenophobe, globally naïve, factually parched, persuading a german when I know damn well if you see a german dousing his house with kerosene the only thing to do is hand them a book of matches and call the fire department . . .
But really, an egotistical meandering memoirist, with a blog style? A blog style?
Damn. That hurts. It really does. That cuts right down to the quick. I’m feeling dizzy. Give me a moment. (Now where’d I put that damn hanky?) I'm sure you'll recover your equilibrium. Those with a sense of humor invariably do. Who knows? You might yet contribute to the knowledge base of Hailun pianos. No harm in that.
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You’ve called me a rube, I dropped from another planet, a xenophobe, globally naïve, factually parched, persuading a german when I know damn well if you see a german dousing his house with kerosene the only thing to do is hand them a book of matches and call the fire department . . . HAPPY NEW YEAR!! Norbert
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That's a wrap on this thread.... can I have a seconder?
ps. I did enjoy the detail brief on specifics of China very much turandot
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China as a whole is a threat and opportunity at the same time.
One has to choose which side is better to operate from, I would say 'opportunity'.
I bet you would pick 'opportunity' just like companies like Yahoo, Google who all agreed to info censorship, propaganda, bribery and other types of control by the Chinese government. 'Opportunity' huh, what a powerful word. Business is business right? Just as I thought. Ejected from another Hailun thread.
Last edited by koiloco; 12/30/09 08:14 PM.
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