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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1334605 12/27/09 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by dewster


Do like I'm doing and just swear off DPs until they make something real. Buy Pianoteq (or whatever floats your boat sound-wise) and bide your time. Life's way too short to be playing a fool's game.


One could also look at it thus; Swear off acoustic pianos until they make something maintenance free, with alternate sound like Rhodes, Wurly, Pipe Organ, Strings, plus, ease of tuning to other instruments, easy transposition, easy amplification.

Most importantly, "maintenance free" would mean no need of tuning.

I agree about life being "too short to be playing a fool's game", but in the context of wasting one's time with acoustic pianos...dinosaurs, all of them! Their bones will eventually be scattered about the dump-sites of the nations, with only the most special and historied instruments winding up in museums next to the pterodactyl and tyrannosaurus. wink

Acoustic pianos remind me of the old Underwood manual typewriters....cool, until you have to replace a ribbon, or get parts.....still, there are those who love them.

Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
limavady #1334632 12/27/09 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by limavady
At risk of bringing the converstion down a notch

Ha ha! And I apologize for being such a negative vibe merchant.

Originally Posted by limavady
... with a 20% off coupon you might be able to get the CP50 for $1360 ... have to admit (and especially if you get the 20% off on any of these it would be hard not to at least go for the mid-priced model)

I agree. Sight unseen (a huge unknown) if I HAD to buy either the P155 or CP50 at this point, I'd probably pony up the extra dough and go with the CP50 - but only if the seller had a liberal return policy.

Sure would be nice to see a manual for the CP50.

KAWAI James, can you use your inside connections to light a fire under your counterparts at Yamaha ? ;-)

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1334707 12/27/09 03:15 PM
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I looked carefully at Yamaha's site, and kept seeing smoke and mirrors (sales speak).

If the CP's were truly modeled the site would say so (and not just cast out hints). Surely they realize that the future is not with samples, no matter how they are manipulated.

However, the problem with physical modeling is that the user is faced with too many variables that affect each other. As a Pianoteq user for well over a year, I'm still on a steep learning curve. I doubt that many DP users are interested in going through this, and the DP makers know this.

Glenn

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1334718 12/27/09 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster

Do like I'm doing and just swear off DPs until they make something real. Buy Pianoteq (or whatever floats your boat sound-wise) and bide your time. Life's way too short to be playing a fool's game.


Ouch.

You have it backwards, actually. I've sworn off of a software solution. I actually own Pianoteq (was a beta tester for the lastest version) as well as tons of samples set.

Lawrence


Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1334768 12/27/09 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted by dewster

Do like I'm doing and just swear off DPs until they make something real. Buy Pianoteq (or whatever floats your boat sound-wise) and bide your time. Life's way too short to be playing a fool's game.


Ouch.

You have it backwards, actually. I've sworn off of a software solution. I actually own Pianoteq (was a beta tester for the lastest version) as well as tons of samples set.

Lawrence



My apologies, I wasn't trying to call you a fool but I guess my post could be read that way.

I'm curious, what got you in the position of being beta tester for Pianoteq all those piano samples? What do you think of v3.5?

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Glenn NK #1334774 12/27/09 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Glenn NK
I looked carefully at Yamaha's site, and kept seeing smoke and mirrors (sales speak).

If the CP's were truly modeled the site would say so (and not just cast out hints). Surely they realize that the future is not with samples, no matter how they are manipulated.

I agree. The most technical wording I've found is from the product line brochure:

Overview of SCM (Spectral Component Modeling)
The Spectral Component Modeling system starts with a fundamentally different tone generation system than Yamaha has ever used before. This system allows physical components of the instrument (hardness of the hammers, resonance of the sound board, striking position of the hammers) to be modeled. It also uses a complete different method of playback than normal sampling technology. Rather than multi-velocity layers of samples, SCM uses granular parametric data so every nuance of the player’s touch is translated into expressive tone.


My guess is they are using fine-grained frequency bands, like FFT or DCS, to encode the samples. Then they record stuff like harder hammers and the like, and adjust the envelope of frequency bands to simulate this. Essentially it is still just a sample playback system.

Originally Posted by Glenn NK
However, the problem with physical modeling is that the user is faced with too many variables that affect each other. As a Pianoteq user for well over a year, I'm still on a steep learning curve. I doubt that many DP users are interested in going through this, and the DP makers know this.

I think they could make a dumbed-down interface of some sort, or rely on totally brain-dead things like presets.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1334790 12/27/09 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Glenn NK
However, the problem with physical modeling is that the user is faced with too many variables that affect each other. As a Pianoteq user for well over a year, I'm still on a steep learning curve. I doubt that many DP users are interested in going through this, and the DP makers know this.

I think they could make a dumbed-down interface of some sort, or rely on totally brain-dead things like presets.


The problem still remains with presets - who will not be tempted to "improve" them?

An example - an fxp posted during beta testing is so badly screwed up, that my guess is that the fellow was unknowingly compensating for his poor sound system.

On the other hand, a user recently developed an fxp of a Steinway D (with major changes in tuning among others) and is actually quite good (he knows what he's doing and takes the time to do it). It's quite easy to give up on PT, and conclude that it doesn't work (while waiting in vain for the perfect solution to come from the DP makers).

Pianoteq requires some knowledge of the physics of the acoustic piano, not something that most of us are interested in or willing to learn about.

Buying the latest Yamaha/Korg/Roland/Kawai/whatever DP is much easier.

Glenn

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1334792 12/27/09 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster
[quote=Melodialworks Music][quote=dewster]

My apologies, I wasn't trying to call you a fool but I guess my post could be read that way.

I'm curious, what got you in the position of being beta tester for Pianoteq all those piano samples? What do you think of v3.5?


In that case, no offense taken!

Just to clarify, I was a beta tester for Pianoteq 3.5 Pro. I was invited to be part of the beta test program. Not actually sure why, but I suspect due to my reputation of constantly seeking "the one".

I've also beta tested another (sampled) piano.

Beta testing is hard work, and you have to be able to put a lot of time into it.

Lawrence

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Glenn NK #1335008 12/27/09 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Glenn NK
The problem still remains with presets - who will not be tempted to "improve" them?

<snip>

It's quite easy to give up on PT, and conclude that it doesn't work (while waiting in vain for the perfect solution to come from the DP makers).

The Pianoteq presets sound so much better than anything I've heard on any DP (not that I've demoed all DPs by any means) - no looping, no stretching, no layer switching, tons of sympathetic resonance, nice long rich decays. I've played around with the parameters somewhat, mainly just to see what they do, but the presets are so far and away better when compared to DPs that I find it difficult to complain. Maybe that would change if I used it more, but nothing is really hitting me in the face when I use it (unlike every DP I've spent quality time with).

Originally Posted by Glenn NK
Pianoteq requires some knowledge of the physics of the acoustic piano, not something that most of us are interested in or willing to learn about.

Oh, it's really nice to know you can deep-dive if some minor thing is driving you crazy. This is why I buy name-brand PC motherboards (Gigabyte, ASUS) with full-featured BIOS.

Originally Posted by Glenn NK
Buying the latest Yamaha/Korg/Roland/Kawai/whatever DP is much easier.

But there's that little "waiting in vain" part you mentioned above that makes that proposition rather dicey. Yamaha is doing it's level best to rip my heart out with vague press releases regarding their latest DP line. I barely survived the V-Piano publicity wave (& need a T-shirt proclaiming that).

Last edited by dewster; 12/27/09 10:24 PM.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1335018 12/27/09 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Just to clarify, I was a beta tester for Pianoteq 3.5 Pro. I was invited to be part of the beta test program. Not actually sure why, but I suspect due to my reputation of constantly seeking "the one".

So what did you think of it? Or are you not at liberty to say? Do they make you sign some kind of NDA or similar?

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I've also beta tested another (sampled) piano.

Wow, you get around! BTW, have you tried the VintAudio C7 sample? I'd be very interested how that measured up to your other experiences.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1335148 12/28/09 02:17 AM
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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Rille Stark #1335157 12/28/09 03:06 AM
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Thanks for sharing! Here's some video from the Yamaha website: http://www.yamahasynth.com/products/stage_pianos

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
genemusic111 #1335160 12/28/09 03:13 AM
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Nord piano?

I like the sound of that!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NXRLDdyn7A

http://www.nordkeyboards.com/main.asp?tm=Products&clpm=Nord_Piano

NAMM 2010 will surely be keyboard heaven!

Cheers,
James
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Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dave Ferris #1335415 12/28/09 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Ferris
I've gotten many years gig-mileage out of the P120 but the time has come (actually about 3 yrs. ago) to get something new and more inspiring (although inspiring and DPs are mutually exclusive terms in my musical world smile ). I just haven't found anything lightweight that I think is a definite step up.

This is pretty much where I am too.

Originally Posted by Dave Ferris
I did get to check out the Korg SV-1 the other day.

I can't get past that "warm" tube staring me in the face. A complete and utter turnoff.

Originally Posted by Dave Ferris
Don't mean to derail but it's obvious the Korg, CP50 and new Nord piano (also previewing at NAMM) will be head to head competitors in that sub 2K gigging pianist market.

All of the new offerings so far cater more to the gigging band/rock pianist and less to the gigging solo/classical pianist. The focus is on the EPs, rather than the acoustic pianos, which is exactly the opposite of what I'm in the market for.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1335473 12/28/09 02:01 PM
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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dave Ferris #1335517 12/28/09 02:58 PM
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I believe the trend is towards satisfying the solo player, with the focus lately being on better acoustic piano replication, rather than Rhodes, Tonewheels etc.

The V-Piano is focused on acoustic replication, as is the CP-1. The lower CP-5 and CP-50 are still much like the old CP-300.

The Avant Grand is on a whole other level, but again, it's main focus to is to replicate the acoustic piano experience using a digital.

It's about time.

Snazzy



Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
snazzyplayer #1335605 12/28/09 04:49 PM
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Does the Avant Grand use the same method(s) of generating the tone as the AP part of the CP1? I'm confused on this point. If the AG is supposed to be the best, and the CP1 is supposed to be the best, then shouldn't they use the same engine? I'm thinking that the AG is strictly samples, whereas the CP1 is samples + modelling, but perhaps I've got it wrong.

I've tried to arrange to play the AG, but they are not yet available in my area. I have one dealer that is going to try to find out tomorrow. (The local head office of Yamaha is closed today . . . ). Apparently they "decide" which dealers will get it in, etc. Interesting.

I'm really enjoying this tread.

Lawrence

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1335614 12/28/09 05:01 PM
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Th Yamaha site says "Spatial Acoustic Sampling", so one would tend to believe it is all sampling, with no modeling involved.

The CP-1, however, seems to involve sampling and modeling for acoustic and electric pianos, but appears to use an FM tone generator for the DX-type EP.

Whatever they used, the Avant Grand sounds pretty darn good, although, I must say, the tactile feedback sure adds to the realism.

I played both my Steinway B and the Avant Grand...yes, you could probably tell the difference...maybe, but the experience is close enough for all but the hard core purist.

It's not a whole lot unlike trying two different acoustics.

I don't regret for one second buying the Avant Grand...it has soul. Only other keyboard that gives me the same kind of feeling, is my Hammond B-3.

Snazzy



Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Kawai James #1335628 12/28/09 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by KAWAI James
Nord piano?

I like the sound of that!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NXRLDdyn7A

http://www.nordkeyboards.com/main.asp?tm=Products&clpm=Nord_Piano

NAMM 2010 will surely be keyboard heaven!

Thanks for those links!

I like the direction NORD is heading in, with uploadable sample sets, sympathetic resonance simulation, etc. I like the way the length of the keyboard is kept to a minimum, but the knobs look like they would snap off in a second - couldn't they recess the entire panel more?

But the deal-breaker? 512MB flash sample memory. 512MB? Come on! People everywhere are THROWING OUT thumb drives that small!

Why is it when I see promos for brand spankin' new DPs I get the feeling I somehow woke up a decade ago?

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
snazzyplayer #1335702 12/28/09 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Th Yamaha site says "Spatial Acoustic Sampling", so one would tend to believe it is all sampling, with no modeling involved.


Avant Grand = Spatial Acoustic Sampling

CP1 = Spectral Component Modeling

No wonder I was confused! (I wonder why they didn't use Spectral Component Modeling in the Avant Grand)?

Lawrence

PS - have you tried recording the Avant Grand from the audio outputs? Is all of the magic lost?

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