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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
snazzyplayer #1330983 12/21/09 09:31 PM
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The illustrated guide is beautiful.

Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
How much of a hassle it is to access the alternate sounds inside the V-Piano from it's own keyboard, or is that actually possible ?


When I play-tested a V-Piano earlier in the year, I was unable to select any non-piano voices. I believe I tried pressing every button, however I did not have access to the owner's manual, so it may perhaps requite a combination of button presses.

Cheers,
James
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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Kawai James #1330987 12/21/09 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by KAWAI James

When I play-tested a V-Piano earlier in the year, I was unable to select any non-piano voices. I believe I tried pressing every button, however I did not have access to the owner's manual, so it may perhaps requite a combination of button presses.

Cheers,
James
x


Apparently it will play SMF with these internal sounds, so it may just be a matter of using another keyboard to access the appropriate channel/voice.

We couldn't access them from the panel either.

Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
snazzyplayer #1330988 12/21/09 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by snazzyplayer

How much of a hassle it is to access the alternate sounds inside the V-Piano from it's own keyboard, or is that actually possible ?

Could you place another keyboard(controller) on top, and access them through MIDI?

What is their quality like?


I realized that I had missed reading a few posts, and thus have edited my response below, to more appropriate answer one of your questions.]

It is not a hassle at all to access the various PIANO presets, or PIANO user presets. You can program four buttons for direct access, or use the dial. (There are only 24 presets - variations of the two models that the V-Piano contains.

Accessing the GM sounds is another matter. You can't accomplish this with button presses, but only by playing from a sequencer with appropriate patch changes. YUCK!!! (I have no idea how the GM sounds sound. Never bothered with them).

You could possibly place a keyboard on top, depending on what it was. (A personal matter, in terms of ergonomics).

Quality? (Of the piano sounds). The models play superbly (a strength of Roland's approach) but the mid range is not good (a weakness of Roland's approach).

I play the V-Piano everyday, and now really work to avoid the midrange. How sad is that? As always, it depends on your approach, style of playing, style of music etc., so your friend's milage may vary.

BTW, check your email account listed in you profile. (I've sent you an email).

Lawrence

Last edited by Melodialworks Music; 12/21/09 09:52 PM.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1331417 12/22/09 12:16 PM
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I took early delivery of my V-Piano yesterday. Spent the evening playing. I agree the midrange does have a slightly artificial sound. I improved this by tweaking hammer hardness, cross resonance and tone colour but it is a characteristic of the piano.

What I don't think some of you are fully acknowledging is the playability of the thing as a musical instrument. Its response to velocity change is remarkable and very piano-like. If you play sampled based sounds all the time (as I have done for the last 15 years), you get used to a kind of disconnection between player and instrument...I really mean you get used to it...to the point where you can live quite happily with it most of the time. When you really get into the V-Piano you realise what a leaden, plodding experience samples often provide. The tonal change they exhibit just doesn't get close to the dynamism of a real instrument.

Perhaps until modeling really does capture the sonic authenticity of a grand piano then the future might just be hybrids of samples and models. There's no doubt in my mind that modeled sounds are the most playable and expressive but I agree at this moment in time samples provide the best sonic realism.

Just one or two more things from me...having watched the Yamaha videos about the CP1 etc...there can be no doubt that the acoustic pianos are basically sample-based probably with some additional modeled elements, but the basic tone generator replays samples of a Yamaha Grand. The electric pianos are entirely modeled but this has been successful for some years now with General Music pioneering this on their "Real Piano" series. They look like really nice instruments to me.

One final point...my Roland man tells me there are rumours of additional sounds and/or updates to the V-Piano for early 2010 which will be retrofittable via the USB port.

Cheers and Happy Christmas,

Steve


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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
EssBrace #1331622 12/22/09 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
...having watched the Yamaha videos about the CP1 etc...there can be no doubt that the acoustic pianos are basically sample-based probably with some additional modeled elements, but the basic tone generator replays samples of a Yamaha Grand. The electric pianos are entirely modeled


Are you lumping together the true electric pianos with the synthesizers?

A quote from Yamaha's web site implies the electric and acoustic use the same technology
Quote
A unique new SCM (Spectral Component Modeling) tone generation system faithfully recreates the 17 selected sounds of acoustic and vintage electronic pianos


The guy on the video said that the Synth sounds where completely model based. But I'm pretty sure, and it's backed up by the above quote, that elct. pianos are hybrid sample/model based like the acoustics.

Terminology may be an issue an "electric piano" is an instrument that uses real hammers to strike objects like strings and tines that produce tones that excite a pickup that feeds an amp. Very much like an electric guitar.

Synths on the other hand, even the first ones back in the 70's were always models. In the beginning they used analog components but never physical hammers or strings.

The current generation of Yamaha DPs play sample synth sounds. It looks like the CP1 goes back to the old way

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
ChrisA #1331686 12/22/09 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
One final point...my Roland man tells me there are rumours of additional sounds and/or updates to the V-Piano for early 2010 which will be retrofittable via the USB port.


Yes, I had intended to make this very point earlier. Because the V-Piano is entirely software based, it is highly like that Roland will release updates to improve the realism of the modelling, just as we have seen with Pianoteq. Indeed, I also suspect that electric piano (and possibly other modelled instruments) sounds will also become available, ideally as a free download.

Cheers,
James
x


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Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Kawai James #1331758 12/22/09 07:32 PM
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As a V-Piano owner, I certainly hope that there will be updates.

My first wish would be for improved, i.e. more realism in the existing two models. Other models can be added after that. The mid range deficiencies must be addressed, in my opinion.

We'll see what happens. Perhaps something will be announced at NAMM?

Lawrence

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1334210 12/26/09 05:41 PM
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A good example of the "looped" sound in the CP1 is the S6 Grand demo recording here: http://www.yamahasynth.com/products/stage_pianos/cp1/

Listen to the bass note that is held at the end - to me it sounds like there is a lack of natural evolution to the sound.

Greg.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
sullivang #1334219 12/26/09 05:54 PM
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My goodness that CP-1 sounds some good! I have to restrain myself, and actually wait to play one before I give my whole opinion.

I'm not getting fooled like I did with the V-Piano...I thought it was my next acquisition....till I played it.

I somehow feel this new Yammie will be the one to beat...the V-Piano only had a temporary visit to the top of the pile.

I've got one great consolation...my CP-300 is an awesome stage piano. and I'd be glad to stay with it if these newcomers aren't to my liking.

Snazzy



Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
snazzyplayer #1334224 12/26/09 06:00 PM
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Well, the V-Piano is the best digital piano I've every played, but it's still not "the one" in terms of sound, although certainly it makes the grade in terms of playability.

Time will tell if the CP1 will make the grade in both departments.

Lawrence

Last edited by Melodialworks Music; 12/26/09 06:01 PM.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1334239 12/26/09 06:16 PM
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The Yamaha CP-1 has some stiff competition, in my opinion, both against the V-Piano (if they upgrade it and fix the questionable mid-range) and the new Korg SV-1.

It also has to beat my Yamaha CP-300 which has excellent pianos, strings, organs etc. and a lovely action...not to mention the awesome internal speaker system and midi controller capabilities. It also weighs about the same as the CP-1, which does not have on-board speakers.

Don't take my dismissal as a put-down of the V-Piano, Lawrence...I'm very fussy like you are, and my next instrument is competing against an instrument I already love (CP-300) and the incredible Avant Grand, which obliterates pretty well everything I've ever played, including my old Steinway B, which is one of the best pianos I've owned...too bad it goes out of tune like all acoustics. frown

Snazzy



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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
snazzyplayer #1334253 12/26/09 06:47 PM
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Mark my words - and I sincerely hope I'm wrong - the CP-1 (indeed this whole product line) will be a disappointment to anyone expecting the next major step in acoustic DP sound realism. If you want an EP, great, but the acoustic piano stuff strikes me as more of an afterthought than anything else.

When are we going to get an open-source friendly DP? Something with enough processor and storage to do real DP sounds? Then just let the open-source community do the software. I'm tired of waiting on the DP manufacturers to catch up with the rest of the modern world.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1334269 12/26/09 07:15 PM
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I hope you're wrong, dewster.

These CP's seem very good in the mi-range, where 90% of the Roland digital pianos are very thin.

It's like they sampled the same acoustic piano, but with progressively more expensive microphones, for each and every instrument they make that has a piano sound in it.

Even my recently sold Roland E-80 had that characteristic weakness in the mids on both it's main pianos.

It's a shame, because a lot of playing is done in the middle of the piano.

My 20 year old HP-1700 has great mids, but back then they used Structured Adaptive Synthesis which preceded their ventures into sample based pianos.

That's why I found it odd that the V-Piano sounded synthetic in the mids...one would hope they should be able to fix that with OS upgrades.

The CP-1 is using both sampling and modeling for the acoustic pianos, giving them a major edge, in my opinion, and, from what I've been hearing, the mids are very good because of it.

The mid-range on my Avant Grand, and CP-300 and P-85 is very good; again, very characteristic of nearly all Yamaha digitals, and that's without the assistance of modeling, which should only make these new CP's even better.

I hope they are very good...I'd hate to waste my money on frivolous things like food and shelter. wink

Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
snazzyplayer #1334277 12/26/09 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by snazzyplayer

Don't take my dismissal as a put-down of the V-Piano, Lawrence...I'm very fussy like you are, and my next instrument is competing against an instrument I already love (CP-300) and the incredible Avant Grand, which obliterates pretty well everything I've ever played, including my old Steinway B, which is one of the best pianos I've owned...too bad it goes out of tune like all acoustics. frown


Snazzy -

No. I unfortunately agree with you. The mids are a big problem. I've tweaked, and improved a bit, but the hollow, synthetic character is still there - all the worse since the ranges above and below are quite acceptable.

I would probably be happy with the N3 (or N2) except for two things:

(1) the price is WAY out of my range - the reality of becoming a pensioner in just over a year is, well, a reality!

(2) I want an instrument that I can record with, I guess without resorting to mics. I suspect that the N3's wonderfulness doesn't translate well to recording from the audio outputs.

I haven't played an N3 / N2 yet, and probably should - especially in comparison to the CP1.

I'm worried about the S6 sample in the CP1. On other forums (like SNinety.com) the S6 in the S90XS is trashed, big time. Apparently they are using samples from the same sampling session for the S6B in the CP1, although the sample will be much larger, and of course, there will be the modeling stuff.

I (perhaps foolishly) keep telling my wife - "this is the last keyboard, for a long time" . . . New Years resolution - stop lying to the wife . . .

Still, if the solution to the V-Piano means trading it for a CP1, I will be prepared to do it. I will, of course, first wait to see what the (possible) OS update brings.

Lawrence

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
snazzyplayer #1334438 12/27/09 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
I hope you're wrong, dewster.


Me too. Believe me, if I could find something - anything - to hang my hopes on, I would.

Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
That's why I found it odd that the V-Piano sounded synthetic in the mids...one would hope they should be able to fix that with OS upgrades.


I see the V-Piano as a first generation Pianoteq - an oddity that might turn into something real if they put a ton more work into it. And I'll be damned if I'm going to pin my fragile hopes to software upgrades from the DP industry. Those guys will let you down every time.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1334442 12/27/09 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I unfortunately agree with you. The mids are a big problem. I've tweaked, and improved a bit, but the hollow, synthetic character is still there - all the worse since the ranges above and below are quite acceptable.

All kidding aside, my heart goes out to you.

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I want an instrument that I can record with, I guess without resorting to mics.

Abandon hope, all ye who enter here...

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I (perhaps foolishly) keep telling my wife - "this is the last keyboard, for a long time" . . . New Years resolution - stop lying to the wife . . .

Still, if the solution to the V-Piano means trading it for a CP1, I will be prepared to do it. I will, of course, first wait to see what the (possible) OS update brings.

Do like I'm doing and just swear off DPs until they make something real. Buy Pianoteq (or whatever floats your boat sound-wise) and bide your time. Life's way too short to be playing a fool's game.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1334488 12/27/09 03:11 AM
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At risk of bringing the converstion down a notch can someone tell me if the CP-50 will have the same piano sound(s) as the CP1. From a brief look at the decription (andys music) it looks like it does. Am i dreaming or is that too good to be true because the price is so radically different. i mean with a 20% off coupon you might be able to get the CP50 for $1360. I know there has to be features on the CP1 that justify the relative price but still...to answer my own question though now that i look a bit at the specs it does look like you'll be getting '6 selected' piano sounds on the cp50....11 on the cp5 and then 17 on the cp1. Of course the cp50 doesn't have the wooden or same quality of graded touch that both the other models do and i'm sure there's more but still...have to admit (and especially if you get the 20% off on any of these it would be hard not to at least go for the mid-priced model)

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
limavady #1334524 12/27/09 07:03 AM
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Limavady,
There is some doubt as to whether the CP1 & CP5 actually have graded actions or not - they are wooden, but may not be graded. If so, this results in the peculiar situation of the cheapest model in the group having one aspect of the keyboard that is superior to the others.

Does anyone know for certain whether the CP1 & CP5 have graded actions or not?

Greg.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
sullivang #1334531 12/27/09 08:14 AM
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sullivang, I think it's safe to assume that the new 'NW Stage' action will be graded. Indeed, it may well be an improvement on the current GH3/NW action used in the CLP-3xx series.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Kawai James #1334538 12/27/09 09:10 AM
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James,
I guess you're probably right. I notice that Yamaha sort of drop the term "graded" in the higher-end models that have the NW action, because it's obviously assumed knowledge that it is graded. Maybe it's the same situation with the NW-Stage action.

Thanks,
Greg.

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