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#1332274 - 12/23/09 12:27 PM Harpsichord and other voices for DPs, software  
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 25
dadof5 Offline
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dadof5  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 25
I have read a few topics on this forum that describe the complex sampling and modeling of piano sounds that go into the better DPs and software pianos. Much of the effort seems to be focused solely on the piano voice. What about other voices that are provided in some DPs and software pianos (SPs ??) such as harpsichord, clavichord, organ, even celesta, etc.? Is as much effort and detail devoted to those? What products do you think do a good job at this if any?

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#1332296 - 12/23/09 12:57 PM Re: Harpsichord and other voices for DPs, software [Re: dadof5]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,842
ChrisA Offline
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ChrisA  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,842
Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted by dadof5
I have read a few topics on this forum that describe the complex sampling and modeling of piano sounds that go into the better DPs and software pianos. Much of the effort seems to be focused solely on the piano voice. What about other voices that are provided in some DPs and software pianos (SPs ??) such as harpsichord, clavichord, organ, even celesta, etc.? Is as much effort and detail devoted to those? What products do you think do a good job at this if any?


Have you seen the videos on the new Yamaha CP1? The Yamaha guy does explain that they have put a lot of work in the Rhodes electric piano and even can model a certain adjustment screw you can make on the rhodes hammers. This implies a LOT of work as the adustment is not simply "bright/mellow" but aim point for a physical hammer. Most of the video covers non-piano sounds and I think that is what is mostly used in the real-world too.

I have a sample library of orchestra instruments and at least in the user manual they claim to have taken great care in sampling woodwinds and strings and even drums and they explain the process somewhat. It sounds about the same as is used with pianos.

#1332426 - 12/23/09 03:46 PM Re: Harpsichord and other voices for DPs, software [Re: ChrisA]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 711
BazC Offline
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BazC  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 711
Cambridgeshire, UK
Pianoteq has a nice range of instruments some included in the basic package some you have to purchase as add-ons.

Pianos!
Pianoforte (5 different modelled on real instruments from 1790 to 1826)
Harpsichord (1733 Blanchet and 1697 Grimaldi)
Cimbalom!
Rhodes and Wurlitzer E Pianos (additional purchase)
Two different Vibraphones (additional purchase)
Yamaha Electric Grand CP-80
Bells

I'm sure there's more to come too!


[Linked Image]
Korg SP200, Pianoteq
#1332465 - 12/23/09 04:33 PM Re: Harpsichord and other voices for DPs, software [Re: BazC]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
dewster Offline
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dewster  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
The harpsichord samples in the Yamaha P-120 and P-155 (and probably P-140) are fantastic. The key-off samples where the plectrum returns rest, picking the damped string really add to the realism.

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#1332496 - 12/23/09 05:06 PM Re: Harpsichord and other voices for DPs, software [Re: dewster]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 518
ROMagister Offline
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ROMagister  Offline
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Posts: 518
Bucuresti, Romania
I tested the one generic 'pipe organ' voice of a Yamaha Arius YDP-140 and was not impressed. Sounded not bad in mid-pitches, a 'Principals chorus' like you would hear in performances of Bach etc. but with a spectrum too 'symmetrical up and down in octaves' (16',8',4',2'...) and weak speakers in bass (low efficiency of sounding fundamental) made, say, D1 hard to distinguish from D2, D2 from D3 etc. Really your ear would rely on upper harmonics to sense the pitch.

Also, the reverb seemed too long and dependent on pitch (a reasonable ~0.4 second in C4 but 0.8 second in C3 and ~1.5 second in C2)- meaning it is really ONE sample just played faster or slower.

So it's a minimal-effort addition, not a main focus of design interest.

My cheap Casio 61-key has better organ sounds (in respect to above considerations) and much more choices. Still weaker speakers in bass, but what to expect from a flat box?

#1332522 - 12/23/09 05:56 PM Re: Harpsichord and other voices for DPs, software [Re: ROMagister]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,842
ChrisA Offline
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ChrisA  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,842
Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted by ROMagister
I tested the one generic 'pipe organ' voice of a Yamaha Arius YDP-140 and was not impressed.


I tried an experiment in my garage a while back. I patched an older Roland synth into the audio section of a 1950's vintage Hammond organ. I found the input to the final pre-amplifier section on the Hammond and connected wires to it and the "L+R" mono output of the Roland.

No surprise at all that the sound coming from Hammond tube based amp and large speakers was 100 times better than when using those little Roland internal speakers.

So, I think that the sound samples inside the DP might be very good but the audio section of most DPs is not up to the task not even close.

One of my current projects now is to build a sound system for a DP using a bunch of salvaged Hammond parts from organs I get free or $50 from Craig's list. I hate to cut up these old instruments but they are not economically repairable and at least I re-use the parts, even the lumber.

#1332528 - 12/23/09 06:05 PM Re: Harpsichord and other voices for DPs, software [Re: ChrisA]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 983
snazzyplayer Offline
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snazzyplayer  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 983
Earth
Try a Logitech Z-2300 system on your digital piano (yes, guys, I know I'm always recommending this system, but it rocks!) and you'll notice a big difference in the pipe organ sounds in your digital piano.

You need a sub woofer to get those rumbling low notes, and the Logitech is well up to the task.

For a system under $200, it has proven to be excellent for amplifying digital pianos and arranger keyboards.

You know, when you think of it, we are actually "playing the speakers" as they are the last link in the chain.

Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
#1335245 - 12/28/09 08:08 AM Re: Harpsichord and other voices for DPs, software [Re: snazzyplayer]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5
Camreals Offline
Junior Member
Camreals  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5
United Kingdom
I used a Rodgers C-100, with organ and harpsichord samples on supplementary card, quite happily for many years. I thought about Roland's C-30 and earlier electronic harpsichord incarnations, but (as I have posted elsewhere), I had to rule these out because none of them possess a top F sharp and G. Both notes are essential for Scarlatti and Rameau. Harpsichord sounds from Yamaha and Roland DPs are feeble, tinkly, one-dimensional and (take it from me) historically incorrect. I've heard no electronic harpsicord sounds with the stunning immediacy, with rich bass and singing treble, that I get from my real late Florentine harpsichord (made by Malcolm Rose). Having said that, I must say that I was impressed by Pianoteq's Grimaldi and Blanchet. Pianoteq will also give you a Walter fortepiano for Mozart and Conrad Graf for Schubert. I haven't the space or the £25K minimum recquired for actual acoustic reconstructions, and so, like you, I'm considering buying a stage piano, Pianoteq3 and laptop to play late classical and early romantic piano music. I've spent much of the holiday studying posts on this and Pianoteq's forum and have ended up totally confused by all the techno jargon and in seven different minds about what to buy. I'm preparing a separate post asking for further advice.

#1335264 - 12/28/09 08:45 AM Re: Harpsichord and other voices for DPs, software [Re: Camreals]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 25
Ángel Santana Offline
Full Member
Ángel Santana  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 25
Gran Canaria (Spain)

Hi.

I agree about the amplifiers and speakers. My Kawai CN32 reproduces a very realistic drawbar organ sounds, even you can "control" the rotor speed with the unicorda pedal (really, yo can only switch between faster or slower). This kind of sounds are very complex (I've played on a Yamaha PSR-E413 for the last year, not the best rival), so you can take a perfect sample, but if you reproduce it on a plastic speakers you get only a signal with a lot of noise and distortion.

I'm guitarrist, and I've been always looking for the perfect sound, even a sound I like today can be horrible tomorrow.


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