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CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING #1326050
12/15/09 05:30 PM
12/15/09 05:30 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,404
Sicily - Italy
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alfredo capurso Offline OP
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I would like to dedicate this Topic to practical Chas ET aural tuning. In my hope, this may eventually help to gain Chas beating whole.

This thread is not intended for discussing different tunings or techniques, nor sequencies efficiency. It is meant as the long-distance “handing on” of my approach, what may substitute a personal directioning of mine for sharing Chas Theory's Temperament.

Please, do not expect regular posting. I will most appreciate any kind of feedback from aural tuners and/or music involved people, through PM or e-mail. In this Topic then, we may talk about individual progress details.


Best regards, a.c.



CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

Presentation on PW and discussion (May 07, 2009) :
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...CULAR%20HARMONIC%20SYSTEM%20-%20CHA.html



Last edited by alfredo capurso; 12/15/09 06:04 PM.

alfredo
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Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso] #1326281
12/16/09 12:03 AM
12/16/09 12:03 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
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Madison, WI USA
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Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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It sounds like a professional quality tuning to me, Alfredo but frankly I sorely miss the color in temperament I am used to hearing with my tunings. The octave stretching is quite beautiful however and the overall sound is very clear.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT] #1326441
12/16/09 08:40 AM
12/16/09 08:40 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
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Sicily - Italy
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alfredo capurso Offline OP
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.....................say
......................I
...............want
...................to
...........choose
....................a
the correct way is tuning a preparatory beats and frequencies curve
...................that
...................leads
.........................to
.......................Chas
......................beating
..........................whole


From mid-section to the highest tones, I need to tune mid-strings at higher pitches, so that all check intervals, in those sections, will have a "preparatory" faster beat rate progression.

Last edited by alfredo capurso; 12/16/09 08:46 AM.

alfredo
Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso] #1326449
12/16/09 09:06 AM
12/16/09 09:06 AM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 152
Kansas City
K
Kent Swafford Offline
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Kent Swafford  Offline
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K

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 152
Kansas City
Quote
From mid-section to the highest tones, I need to tune mid-strings at higher pitches, so that all check intervals, in those sections, will have a "preparatory" faster beat rate progression.


Why?

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Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Kent Swafford] #1326850
12/16/09 06:20 PM
12/16/09 06:20 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,404
Sicily - Italy
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alfredo capurso Offline OP
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alfredo capurso  Offline OP
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Posts: 1,404
Sicily - Italy

Bill, Kent, thank you.

Tuning a piano may be compared to forging a bow.

A piano reacts quite like a stringed bow and, like a bow, a piano must have its correct "at rest" tension.

The piano's "at rest" tension can return our favorite tuning form. Arguing from analogy, I forge a bow by considering its dynamics. Pins may then be compared to arrows.

I pull the string and stretch my bow as due, then I’m aiming my arrow (the pin) at my target (Chas form), and let my bow itself (the piano) adjust to its consequent "at rest" tension. This overall tension can draw my favorite form.

So, I never go directly for the Chas form. I’m not the one that gains it, I only determine the premises. Chas EB-ET temperament can only be the result of correct evaluation of all the factors mentioned below. This factors call for an accentuated stretch for all intervals, what I refer to as Chas Preparatory Tuning.

The many tons of mixtured forces in the piano, how the strings tension and load increase (or decrease) will effect the whole structure, together with the strings three-lengths adjustements. So, before and during my tuning, I’m there to evaluate the settling down parabola.

It is indeed like calculating an arrow’s trajectory, in consideration of wind and gravity.

a.c.


CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

Presentation on PW and discussion (May 07, 2009) :
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html





Last edited by alfredo capurso; 12/16/09 06:34 PM.

alfredo
Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso] #1326858
12/16/09 06:27 PM
12/16/09 06:27 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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How far from just is the piano when you start ?


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Olek] #1326883
12/16/09 06:53 PM
12/16/09 06:53 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,404
Sicily - Italy
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alfredo capurso Offline OP
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Hi Kamin,

Good point, but I would not have a clue. The one you mention is one of the variables, like the person that will open us the door.

Regards, a.c.


alfredo
Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso] #1326891
12/16/09 07:03 PM
12/16/09 07:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 152
Kansas City
K
Kent Swafford Offline
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K

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 152
Kansas City
Quote
Arguing from analogy, I forge a bow by considering its dynamics.


Why do you feel the need to use flowery analogy in speaking with experienced professional tuners?

Quote
So, I never go directly for the Chas form.


Specifically, why not?

Are you claiming that your temperament and/or stretch level of your tuning requires some special technique that must be followed in order for a professional tuner to execute your tuning with stable results?

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Kent Swafford] #1326915
12/16/09 07:34 PM
12/16/09 07:34 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,404
Sicily - Italy
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alfredo capurso Offline OP
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Hello Kent,

we can discuss about my needs, flowers, analogies, pro tuning and special techniques here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...CULAR%20HARMONIC%20SYSTEM%20-%20CHA.html

Regards, a.c.

CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

Presentation on PW and discussion (May 07, 2009) :
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html



alfredo
Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso] #1326934
12/16/09 07:54 PM
12/16/09 07:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 152
Kansas City
K
Kent Swafford Offline
Full Member
Kent Swafford  Offline
Full Member
K

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 152
Kansas City
Quote
I would like to dedicate this Topic to practical Chas ET aural tuning


My questions are within the scope of this topic, are they not?

To repeat:

Why do you feel the need to use flowery analogy in speaking with experienced professional tuners?

Are you claiming that your temperament and/or stretch level of your tuning requires some special technique that must be followed in order for a professional tuner to execute your tuning with stable results?

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Kent Swafford] #1326967
12/16/09 08:36 PM
12/16/09 08:36 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,404
Sicily - Italy
A
alfredo capurso Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
alfredo capurso  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,404
Sicily - Italy
Bill, Kent, you have already my reply here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html

This thread is not intended for discussing different tunings or techniques, nor sequencies efficiency. I will most appreciate any kind of feedback from aural tuners and/or music involved people, through PM or e-mail.

In this Topic then, we may talk about individual progress details.


...........................(- (- (- (- (- (- (+) -) -) -) -) -) -)


Tuning a piano may be compared to forging a bow.

A piano reacts quite like a stringed bow and, like a bow, a piano must have its correct "at rest" tension.

The piano's "at rest" tension can return our favorite tuning form. Arguing from analogy, I forge a bow by considering its dynamics. Pins may then be compared to arrows.

I pull the string and stretch my bow as due, then I’m aiming my arrow (the pin) at my target (Chas form), and let my bow itself (the piano) adjust to its consequent "at rest" tension. This overall tension can draw my favorite form.

So, I never go directly for the Chas form. I’m not the one that gains it, I only determine the premises. Chas EB-ET temperament can only be the result of correct evaluation of all the factors mentioned below. This factors call for an accentuated stretch for all intervals, what I refer to as Chas Preparatory Tuning.

The many tons of mixtured forces in the piano, how the strings tension and load increase (or decrease) will effect the whole structure, together with the strings three-lengths adjustements. So, before and during my tuning, I’m there to evaluate the settling down parabola.

It is indeed like calculating an arrow’s trajectory, in consideration of wind and gravity.

a.c.


CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

Presentation on PW and discussion (May 07, 2009) :
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html

Last edited by alfredo capurso; 12/16/09 08:52 PM.

alfredo
Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso] #1327028
12/16/09 10:01 PM
12/16/09 10:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 152
Kansas City
K
Kent Swafford Offline
Full Member
Kent Swafford  Offline
Full Member
K

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 152
Kansas City
Was the link you posted intended to be bogus?

Quote
In this Topic then, we may talk about individual progress details.


Is it acceptable, then, to provide feedback stating that no progress is possible, given the lack of information forthcoming from you?

I repeat:

Are you claiming that your temperament and/or stretch level of your tuning requires some special technique that must be followed in order for a professional tuner to execute your tuning with stable results?

Will you be posting here corrected instructions for your temperament, as has been requested before?

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Kent Swafford] #1327156
12/17/09 01:25 AM
12/17/09 01:25 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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Olek  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
was not yet the settling bowl parabola yet used ?

But I begin to be annoyed to have to try to understand where you man want to come by with that suspense and prophetic things. Are you in a sect of some sort ?

I have also find that one " the bow when plucked, tone as a bow : boink !"

We need enthusiastic people, but please how do you want us to take you seriously ? Kens inquiry was serious, is it necessary to raise pitch on the whole piano befor meditating a Chas tuning .

Last edited by Kamin; 12/17/09 03:12 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Olek] #1327169
12/17/09 01:44 AM
12/17/09 01:44 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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Olek  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
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France
About bowing, or natural settling, yes a grand, preferently without plate bushing, could settle in a natural way hence no active pin setting from the tuner, the pianist do the job, but I learned to rely not so much to that, If you think of that.

Last edited by Kamin; 12/17/09 01:50 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Olek] #1327261
12/17/09 07:27 AM
12/17/09 07:27 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,404
Sicily - Italy
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alfredo capurso Offline OP
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Sicily - Italy

Kent,

I did link my reply to you, it is still there. I apologize for the forthcoming amount of informations, it is mainly relative to my time disposal.

This thread is meant as the long-distance “handing on” of my approach. It is not intended for discussing different approaches, tunings or techniques, nor sequencies efficiency.

Please mind, nobody here is forced into any kind of belief. I’m simply talking about my personal experience, one of many possible routes, and about my favorite tuning temperament, in my personal way. Nobody then is forced into this reading and, if it was not satisfactory, this whole thread may as well be ignored.

Anybody may have sincere reasons for sharing Theories, approaches, tunings, techniques, linguistic styles and/or forms of communication. If anyone wanted to talk about their own issues, or deepen a subject, I kindly ask he/she either to choose the most appropriate Topic (there is plenty) or to start his/her own new Topic.

For discussing about Chas EB-ET Theory, you are welcome here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html


Regards, a.c.


CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

Presentation on PW and discussion (May 07, 2009) :
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html

.


alfredo
Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Olek] #1327280
12/17/09 08:42 AM
12/17/09 08:42 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,940
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline
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With the analogy of a piano being a bow and when releasing the tension the tuning is created, my question is a little different than Kamin’s:

Originally Posted by Kamin
How far from just is the piano when you start ?


My question is: “Just how far will the piano fly when you finish?” laugh


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso] #1327283
12/17/09 08:52 AM
12/17/09 08:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 152
Kansas City
K
Kent Swafford Offline
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Kent Swafford  Offline
Full Member
K

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 152
Kansas City
Given that the topic is named "CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING", is it not appropriate to inquire about why a preparatory tuning is needed?

Quote
Nobody then is forced into this reading and, if it was not satisfactory, this whole thread may as well be ignored.


How, exactly, do you intend to disseminate your technique if you won't discuss it?

Repeating, do you plan to post a corrected version of your tuning instructions, as previously requested?

Quote
For discussing about Chas EB-ET Theory, you are welcome here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html


Is it intentional that you are repeatedly posting this broken link?



Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Kent Swafford] #1327294
12/17/09 09:24 AM
12/17/09 09:24 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,404
Sicily - Italy
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alfredo capurso Offline OP
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"Given that the topic is named "CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING", is it not appropriate to inquire about why a preparatory tuning is needed?"...

Kent, you can also read about that in Chas first Topic. Sorry, for the link, yesterday it was working. May I ask you to kindly change attitude? As I have said, nobody is forced into this reading. a.c.


alfredo
Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso] #1328350
12/18/09 02:58 PM
12/18/09 02:58 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,404
Sicily - Italy
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alfredo capurso Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,404
Sicily - Italy

........(- (- (- (o) -) -) -)

/-------------------------------//
------------------------------//

......................l
......................l
.....................a
.....................w
.....................a
.....................d
.....................n
.....................o
.....................y
.....................e
.....................b
.....................k
.....................o
.....................o
......................l
.....................a
.....................n
.....................n
.....................a
.....................w
......................I
......................y
......................a
......................s

..a.v....n.l....o.t..........l.a.......b.o
.h...e.o...y.g....o......e...s....c.....a
I........................n.e.......t.i..........r.d

considering my wheight

............................................t......i
.....................................i..................n
..............................t.............................t
.......................e.......................................h
..................s................................................i
.............y......................................................s
........a............................................................w
....m.................................................................a
I..........................................................................y


When I modify the strings load on the bridge and the soundboard, I consider the elasticity factor. The bridge and the sounboard can only adjust then under a correct distribution of the new load, only then I get my favorite tuning.

.

Last edited by alfredo capurso; 12/18/09 03:11 PM.

alfredo
Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso] #1328379
12/18/09 03:37 PM
12/18/09 03:37 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,940
Bradford County, PA
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Joined: Nov 2008
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Bradford County, PA
Alfredo:

Maybe you are talking about what is called a "pitch raise." A piano is below pitch, so it is roughly tuned a little above pitch but ends up about on pitch. Then it is given a finer tuning. Of course some parts of the piano may be lower than others and the "a little above pitch" might be more like "quite a bit above pitch."

Is this what you are doing when a piano is below pitch, or do you need to do this regardless of where the piano's pitch starts at? I mean, if there is a piano that you tune regularly, do you do this preparation tuning every time?


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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