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New stage pianos from Yamaha!
#1327582 12/17/09 04:22 PM
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CP1

CP5

CP50

"Spectral Component Modeling" sounds like an interesting technical term... cool
Time for a new generation?


Peace

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Rille Stark #1327591 12/17/09 04:30 PM
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Thanks for the link, Richard....these look pretty slick.

Yamaha has developed an uncanny ability to nail the market right in the sweet spot every time.

Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
snazzyplayer #1327616 12/17/09 05:08 PM
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Wow, interesting.... Comparison chart here: http://www.yamahasynth.com/jp/library/cp1_5_50_en/compare/comparison_eng.html
Video demonstration describing this "Spectral Component Modeling"
http://www.keyboardmag.com/article/yamaha-cp-1-stage/December-2009/105233

I wonder when they'll be in stores... the CP1 and CP5 look kinda nice.


Kronos2-61, Fantom-8
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
7even #1327617 12/17/09 05:12 PM
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Seems the CP5 is the strongest one.


P-85 cheap plastic imitation; not because of sound, but weight.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Rille Stark #1327729 12/17/09 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard Stark
"Spectral Component Modeling" sounds like an interesting technical term...

I'll take a wild guess.

I think they are finally employing MP3-like spectral (FFT or DCT) compression to significantly reduce (~1/10) the size of the stored samples. I haven't researched it much, but it is probably the case that the compressed domain is linear, so they could scale / mix samples there and then run them through a single decompression stage.

If that is the case, then this is really good news. I'll take modern lossy compression (at an adequate bit rate) over stone age compression like note stretching and looping any day of the week.

However, if I were building a DP I don't think I'd go this route (particularly with flash memory so cheap). But I've thought about it a bit.

Last edited by dewster; 12/17/09 07:56 PM.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1327737 12/17/09 08:07 PM
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So what's better:

NW-STAGE keyboard (Wooden synthetic ivory weighted keyboard)

-OR-

GH keyboard

?

I don't think I would put a vacuum fluorescent display in a stage-type instrument. They are not as rugged as LED or LCD, require high voltages to operate, and they dim over time.

I don't understand what the numbers represent in the "SCM Piano Block" section of the comparison chart - is this memory? Whatever they are, the CP1 has more than the others.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1327743 12/17/09 08:13 PM
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Wow, these look very sexy!

I have my eye on the CP1 - that 55x2 character display is gorgeous!

Also, I note that all three instruments include the S6B acoustic piano sound, which I am assuming is similar to the highly regarded Natural S6 voice previously only available in the S90XS/S70XS.

And just a handful of vintage electric pianos too, rather than hundreds of poor quality sounds that no musician would ever consider using - good decision Yamaha!

Is 'NW STAGE' a new action? I haven't heard of this one before?

Originally Posted by Huygens
Seems the CP5 is the strongest one.


It's not immediately clear which instrument offers the highest specification, some are stronger in different areas rather than being arranged in a hierarchy - again, another interesting concept.

I'm really looking forward to trying these new models!

Cheers,
James
x


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Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Kawai James #1327764 12/17/09 08:46 PM
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"Yamaha even developed a special NW-STAGE wooden key action specifically to meet the demands of top pros." I guess this is a new action?

The piano (and other) samples over there sound pretty good, though I would like to hear individual notes decay over a long period of time (I really wish that was part of the Purgatory Creek MIDI demo). Demos are usually so frenetic that any compression issues are effectively hidden (the whole point of a blizzard of notes, I guess). To their credit, they let the sustain at the end go on for a while before damping the strings.

Anyone got any info on when these will be released into the wild?

Last edited by dewster; 12/17/09 08:47 PM.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1327767 12/17/09 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Richard Stark
"Spectral Component Modeling" sounds like an interesting technical term...

I'll take a wild guess.


I'll guess it's a little different. I think they have broken the samples down into "components" like hammer strikes and the "bright" sounds near the ends of the string and the mellow sounds near the center of the strings. then on playback they can add weighted sum with more of the center string sound for a low key velocity and more of the end string sound for the high velocity string. This is almost the way physical modling works but I think Yamaha is doing it with sampling. The proportion of end to mid string sounds would change over time as the note sustained. Yamaha talks about "12 components" so rather then just end and center strings sound they might have 10 other sounds and then they get blended with time varying weights.

I am pretty sure this is what Roland does in the RD700 and FP7 too. Roland calls is "performance modelling".

None of these new CP series pianos have speakers. So the dynamic range and the level of bass power is entirely up to the customer and his budget.

Last night I was at a live music performance, 2,000 seat auditorium. The dynamic range is amazing when you put 25 instruments on stage. I noticed the percussionist, when he did the cymbal hits his hair would literally blow backwards. I wonder what speakers it would take before the "crash cymbal" sample in my Roland synth would make my hair blow backwards when I press the key? Reminded me of that old Maxel ad.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1327776 12/17/09 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster

Anyone got any info on when these will be released into the wild?


CP-1 next January and the other two later that year is what I've read.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
M. Doege #1327789 12/17/09 09:10 PM
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"Spectral Component Modeling" - I'm sure someone in the department of obfuscation got a raise for that one.

The heck of it is, if Yamaha would just come out and explain, in plain english, how the heck they are doing the pianos in these things I would either immediately sit up and take notice or strike them from the list. I think they could do it without giving anything proprietary away (DPs are notoriously behind the technology curve anyway) and it would make it so much easier on us tech savvy consumers.

I'm starting to think they just hate us.

Last edited by dewster; 12/17/09 09:11 PM.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1327793 12/17/09 09:14 PM
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If the consumer was that tech savvy, they wouldn't need it explained to them. wink

Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
snazzyplayer #1327804 12/17/09 09:32 PM
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dewster, the Yamaha America website seems to make a little more sense than the YamahaSynth.com site (I get the impression that the later is still in development).

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/List/ModelSeriesList.html?CTID=205800&CNTYP=PRODUCT

Take a look at the brochure too, it's very sleek, and includes an explanation of SCM. Clearly, Yamaha have adopted physical modelling for these new instruments.

According to the Japanese press release, the CP1 will retail at 525,000 JPY which is approaching the V-Piano price-bracket.

Cheers,
James
x


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Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Kawai James #1327847 12/17/09 10:31 PM
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Hey, thanks for the pointer K-James! SCM is still largely a mystery to me though, I need more info to sooth my savage techie breast.

A lower price would sooth it too.

Last edited by dewster; 12/17/09 10:32 PM.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1327947 12/18/09 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by dewster
"Spectral Component Modeling" - I'm sure someone in the department of obfuscation got a raise for that one.
It's just marketing speak. It doesn't HAVE to mean anything.

They might just as well have called it "sonic projection synthesis". Or "modulated audio stratification". Or "bibbidy bobbidy boo". smile

It just has to sound good, to attract attention. Nothing more.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
MacMacMac #1327962 12/18/09 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Originally Posted by dewster
"Spectral Component Modeling" - I'm sure someone in the department of obfuscation got a raise for that one.
It's just marketing speak. It doesn't HAVE to mean anything..


Correct but they do talk a little about it on the web site and give enough hints that we can make slightly informed guesses.

For example when they talk about components of the sound. This implies that what is stored is not a simple recording like a CD but that somehow they have broken the recording down some how into well, "components". What these are we don't really know.

They print in the FAQ
Quote
you can then adjust various parameters of physical components like "Hammer Stiffness" or "Stiriking Position"

This really says they are doing some form of modeling that is certainly not done in their current line of DPs We don't know the details but I'm sticking with my guess that Yamaha is using a hybrid of sampling and models and not a pure physics model.

Last edited by ChrisA; 12/18/09 01:27 AM.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
MacMacMac #1327991 12/18/09 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Originally Posted by dewster
"Spectral Component Modeling" - I'm sure someone in the department of obfuscation got a raise for that one.
It's just marketing speak. It doesn't HAVE to mean anything.

They might just as well have called it "sonic projection synthesis". Or "modulated audio stratification". Or "bibbidy bobbidy boo". smile

It just has to sound good, to attract attention. Nothing more.

What if Toyota told you the car you were considering purchasing had an engine that works via the new mysterious "bibbidy bobbidy boo" processes? You'd say "F that, I'm getting the Honda that uses internal combustion!"

It shows Yamaha don't respect their knowledgeable customers, which I have experienced directly.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
snazzyplayer #1327994 12/18/09 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
If the consumer was that tech savvy, they wouldn't need it explained to them.

If I had some kind of idea of what it was that they were going out of their way to not explain to me, that would be one thing, but I don't even know that.

What are we supposed to do, read their frikkin' minds?

Honestly, corporate engineers need to take back a tiny modicum of control over how the products they so tirelessly labor over are represented by the suits.

These details MEAN something to some of us, and could easily stimulate sales, if they weren't endlessly obfuscated.

Last edited by dewster; 12/18/09 02:23 AM.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
ChrisA #1328000 12/18/09 02:22 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisA
For example when they talk about components of the sound. This implies that what is stored is not a simple recording like a CD but that somehow they have broken the recording down some how into well, "components". What these are we don't really know.

They print in the FAQ
Quote
you can then adjust various parameters of physical components like "Hammer Stiffness" or "Stiriking Position"

This really says they are doing some form of modeling that is certainly not done in their current line of DPs We don't know the details but I'm sticking with my guess that Yamaha is using a hybrid of sampling and models and not a pure physics model.

You may be 100% right. But this could also mean that they are only adjusting the cutoff and Q of a filter. Market speak can mean anything, at this point no one expects it to be truthful.

But how does Yamaha's crazy talk help me, the curious consumer, who wants to buy something based on solid engineering?

Last edited by dewster; 12/18/09 02:25 AM.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
ChrisA #1328031 12/18/09 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisA
Correct but they do talk a little about it on the web site and give enough hints that we can make slightly informed guesses.
That's just what they want us to do. Make guesses. When we infer things that they did not state, we render them harmless from any claims of deception. That's standard procedure for marketing.

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