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Re: Are you a Mac or a PC? [Re: kevinb] #1311872
11/24/09 11:45 PM
11/24/09 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by kevinb
Originally Posted by Horowitzian
No, it's more secure because it's Unix. Unix's strict compartmentalizing of the system makes it a very tough nut to crack. Basically, the only things that can be done are trojans that trick the user into allowing them to do something, by giving an admin password for instance. The way Unix is organized also prevents the day-to-day crap that happens in Windows, like an application crash taking down the whole system.


In principle, there's no reason why modern versions of MS Windows couldn't offer the same level of immunity to viruses and nasties. The process and filesystem security models are both pretty solid. Unfortunately, it's taking developers and users a long time to cotton on to this. A lot of Windows software still works on the basis that it is subject to no security restrictions, and doesn't work on more secure installations. And a lot of users can't get their heads around the idea of using different login accounts to do different jobs -- something that is meat and drink in the Unix world.
Agreed. Windows can be tightly secured. But doing so would leave most users helpless. The typical PC (both Windows and Mac) have no system administrator to manage the system. So the system must remain relatively unlocked, to allow the owner to install applications and to configure the system.

That's not acceptable in a business environment. Users aren't allowed to make system changes. Only admins should do that. So things are kept tightly locked.

So the difference isn't between Unix and Windows (or between Unix and Mac). The difference is between a business environment (with admins) and a home (or small business) environment (with no proper admin at all).

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Re: Are you a Mac or a PC? [Re: MacMacMac] #1311959
11/25/09 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Windows can be tightly secured. But doing so would leave most users helpless. The typical PC (both Windows and Mac) have no system administrator to manage the system. So the system must remain relatively unlocked, to allow the owner to install applications and to configure the system.


I don't think `helpless' is the right word. If there is the inclination, software vendors can promote the message that there is more to responsible computer use than simply knowing how to change fonts in your word processor. Saying that users would be `helpless' if they had to be responsible is like saying car drivers are `helpless' if they have to obey the Highway Code. Of course it would be easier to learn to drive if you could assume that you're the only driver on the roads; but in practice we all accept that isn't the case, and are taught how to deal with it. And so it should be with computers.

A challenge of Microsoft and Apple and other software vendors is to make their systems enforce good security practices while at the same time being easy for a non-technical user to administer. All the major vendors have made significant steps in this direction in the last couple of years.

Microsoft in particular has a real battle here. The company really wants to do the right thing, but it faces constant protest from customers whenever it steps back, however slightly, from the `click here if you Microsoft to do your thinking for you' business model.

I suspect that the majority of computer owners don't realize that working on a computer with an Internet connection is in many ways very much like driving on a public highway, particularly the notion of shared responsibility. The sooner we put people right about that, the better for everybody.


Re: Are you a Mac or a PC? [Re: MacMacMac] #1312164
11/25/09 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
[...]
So the difference isn't between Unix and Windows (or between Unix and Mac). The difference is between a business environment (with admins) and a home (or small business) environment (with no proper admin at all).


Nice screen name. cool Afraid I have to disagree somewhat there...the Unix platform is better designed irrespective of security protocol. wink


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Are you a Mac or a PC? [Re: Horowitzian] #1312321
11/25/09 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Horowitzian
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
[...]
So the difference isn't between Unix and Windows (or between Unix and Mac). The difference is between a business environment (with admins) and a home (or small business) environment (with no proper admin at all).


Nice screen name. cool Afraid I have to disagree somewhat there...the Unix platform is better designed irrespective of security protocol. wink


Unix wasn't designed -- it evolved by random selection smile

Happily, it evolved in environments which were largely free of commercial pressures to make it appealing to end users. Whether this favourable climate persists remains to be seen.


Re: Are you a Mac or a PC? [Re: kevinb] #1312352
11/25/09 06:02 PM
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I would disagree with Horwitzian (and agree with Kevin) about the current state of affairs with OS security. In the early days of the internet, hacking into unix/linux servers was common place and easily done. Current systems are where they are due to a significant amount of trial and error. OpenBSD is one of the few systems around that actually took a significant proactive approach to OS security. The concepts of permissions and protected address spaces has been around since the dark ages, it's a much better understanding of how to apply them (e.g. setuid) and having the horsepower to overcome performance penalties (e.g. user space vs kernel space) that have really brought it down to the common man.

Re: Are you a Mac or a PC? [Re: bitWrangler] #1312478
11/25/09 09:50 PM
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Yep...I don't disagree about your point regarding security. My point is more of a performance thing rather than a security thing. No OS is going to be perfect with regards to security. Of course, some is more perfect than others. grin


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Are you a Mac or a PC? [Re: Horowitzian] #1315990
12/01/09 03:01 PM
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"Don't ask a man what kind of computer he uses. If it's a Macintosh, he'll tell you. If not, why embarrass him?" (supposed source: Tom Clancy)

Recently finished reading a book "The Cuckoo's Egg" by Clifford Stoll. Pretty interesting account of security problems on Unix systems. Didn't much care for the writing style, but the story was good, and it gave a look into the general disregard for computer security back in the late 1980s.

BTW, I have both a Mac and PC at work, but only a Mac at home. Security concerns aside, I prefer the Mac for its much more elegant and intuitive user interface. (And I can still get a Unix prompt on my Mac. smile )








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Re: Are you a Mac or a PC? [Re: MaryBee] #1318632
12/04/09 09:21 PM
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I have a MacBook Pro, an iMac, and a Mac Pro. Only one Windows laptop in the house and it's going in the dumpster as soon as I can afford another MacBook.

I support Microsoft all day at work, and when I get home the LAST thing I want to see is Windows.

Beyond that, I like Mac for home machines, but for business I don't think they are ready for prime time due to the lack of professional/business line software availability and interoperability with such applications on the corporate network. Microsoft is simply far too entrenched on the corporate LAN/WAN to permit true Mac adoption in the business world, IMHO.

And beyond that, it's too expensive for most companies to adopt on a large scale.

Maybe someday!

Bob


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Re: Are you a Mac or a PC? [Re: minorkeys] #1318642
12/04/09 09:35 PM
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They are actually coming along pretty well in that department, or so I have heard. One big problem is unresolved issues with Active Directory; however, that affects all Unix operating systems that are used in a Windows server environment.

But Apple is traditionally consumer-oriented. They certainly don't depend upon enterprise buyers to keep their profit margins. smile


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Are you a Mac or a PC? [Re: Horowitzian] #1320004
12/07/09 02:20 AM
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I'm on PC,because pc can do many thing that mac can't do it

Re: Are you a Mac or a PC? [Re: learn piano] #1320339
12/07/09 01:33 PM
12/07/09 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by learn piano
I'm on PC,because pc can do many thing that mac can't do it


You mean like the Blue Screen of Death? grin


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Are you a Mac or a PC? [Re: Horowitzian] #1320575
12/07/09 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Horowitzian
Originally Posted by learn piano
I'm on PC,because pc can do many thing that mac can't do it


You mean like the Blue Screen of Death? grin


No no, that's the beauty of a Mac, if you really miss your BSODs, you can still have them by using Parallels or Fusion =)

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Re: Are you a Mac or a PC? [Re: bitWrangler] #1320578
12/07/09 06:41 PM
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I'm a PC of course. See below...

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Re: Are you a Mac or a PC? [Re: bitWrangler] #1320604
12/07/09 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by bitWrangler
Originally Posted by Horowitzian
Originally Posted by learn piano
I'm on PC,because pc can do many thing that mac can't do it


You mean like the Blue Screen of Death? grin


No no, that's the beauty of a Mac, if you really miss your BSODs, you can still have them by using Parallels or Fusion =)

[Linked Image]


Now that's funny, bitWrangler! Thanks for sharing. I needed the laugh. laugh On a similar note, if you have a shared Windows computer on your network, the icon that shows up next to it in Finder has a BSOD on it. grin


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Are you a Mac or a PC? [Re: Horowitzian] #1322216
12/09/09 09:55 PM
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PC is so much more flexible than Macs. If you're looking for easy to use overpriced and simple interface than go for a Mac. But if you wanna do more in-depth stuff with your computer and change things that a Mac won't let you then go for a PC. Honestly if you use a PC you won't get a virus unless you do something silly like opening random attachments in your e-mail.

Re: Are you a Mac or a PC? [Re: Reuburn] #1322348
12/10/09 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Reuburn
PC is so much more flexible than Macs. If you're looking for easy to use overpriced and simple interface than go for a Mac. But if you wanna do more in-depth stuff with your computer and change things that a Mac won't let you then go for a PC. Honestly if you use a PC you won't get a virus unless you do something silly like opening random attachments in your e-mail.


Could we see some such as's rather than generalized platitudes? crazy Ironic isn't it that graphic design pros tend to prefer Macs. And with Unix underneath, there's a lot more to OS X than meets the eye.

As to viruses, there are more threats than just email attachments these days. Running Windows without virus protection is stupid.


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Are you a Mac or a PC? [Re: Chopin4life] #1322664
12/10/09 01:23 PM
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I'm ON a PC for the last 25 years of my life (being 32 now). That alone is a reason to stick to PCs... too used to them (and I still use Dos for some reasons and GWBasic :D).

Thing is that if I switched now I would also have to buy an extra $10,000 of software (right now only for PC) or change them with the equivilant ones... :-/

Re: Are you a Mac or a PC? [Re: Reuburn] #1322829
12/10/09 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Reuburn
PC is so much more flexible than Macs. If you're looking for easy to use overpriced and simple interface than go for a Mac. But if you wanna do more in-depth stuff with your computer and change things that a Mac won't let you then go for a PC. Honestly if you use a PC you won't get a virus unless you do something silly like opening random attachments in your e-mail.


What type of "in-depth stuff" are you referring to? What are you trying to change that a Mac won't let you? I can only assume you are referring to tower machines and the relative lack of Mac compatible add-on cards (the overwhelming majority of which are graphics cards)? So if you statement boils down to "I can't roll my own gaming tower with mega quad card nvidia graphics and creative sound card" then you would be absolutely correct (hackintosh's not withstanding). However, since this addresses a relatively small percentage of the overall computing public, I don't think it's something that you can unilaterally dismiss a platform for. Plus, look at the success of netbooks, folks generally don't want to monkey with their systems, they just want to surf.


Originally Posted by Nikolas
I'm ON a PC for the last 25 years of my life (being 32 now). That alone is a reason to stick to PCs... too used to them (and I still use Dos for some reasons and GWBasic :D).

Thing is that if I switched now I would also have to buy an extra $10,000 of software (right now only for PC) or change them with the equivilant ones... :-/


Or you can just run the above mentioned parallels or fusion and transition at your own speed.

Re: Are you a Mac or a PC? [Re: eweiss] #1322975
12/10/09 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by eweiss
I'm a PC of course. See below...

...

Not some Mac loving college boy...

[Linked Image]

With his classic blue slip on shoes. Come on!

This is exactly what I'm wearing right now - jeans, t-shirt, and sweatshirt hoodie! (Except the sweatshirt is gray and my slip-on shoes are brown). Whew. Good thing I'm typing this on a Mac! smile


Mary Bee
Current mantra: Play outside the box.
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Re: Are you a Mac or a PC? [Re: MaryBee] #1323251
12/11/09 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by MaryBee
Originally Posted by eweiss
I'm a PC of course. See below...

...

Not some Mac loving college boy...

[Linked Image]

With his classic blue slip on shoes. Come on!

This is exactly what I'm wearing right now - jeans, t-shirt, and sweatshirt hoodie! (Except the sweatshirt is gray and my slip-on shoes are brown). Whew. Good thing I'm typing this on a Mac! smile


and a scruffy beard too?

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