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Re: Irregular number of notes on one beat [Re: Diablo] #1315308
11/30/09 05:51 PM
11/30/09 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Diablo
Thanks guys, it seems a general consensus that it is imperative one masters the left hand to keep strict tempo and rhythm before attempting playing the right hand.
Well, how about something more like: it's imperative that the left hand is easy to perform for you at any tempo, and the left hand can basically "perform its part all by itself" while you then shift your attention to other things.

It's not the strictness so much as the no-problem-ness of the left hand that's needed IMO. You should be able to play too fast, too slow, or your usual speed, all without even paying attention, and your left hand be so solid that it never misses or gets confused.


(I'm a piano teacher.)
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Re: Irregular number of notes on one beat [Re: david_a] #1315561
11/30/09 11:38 PM
11/30/09 11:38 PM
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Tony Romo Offline
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I find that when working out irregular rhythms like 2 against 3, or 4 against 3,..

It does help to know where the notes that DONT fall on the beat fit in... you can figure this out. It doesnt have to be mathematically perfect, but it helps to have some idea..


Re: Irregular number of notes on one beat [Re: david_a] #1315582
12/01/09 12:26 AM
12/01/09 12:26 AM
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RogerW Offline
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Originally Posted by david_a
Dividing the beat precisely and evenly by 11 is not possible at slow tempo, if it's possible at all.

Sure it is possible. Whatever polyrhythm x against 3 is easily divided precisely by dividing all beats of x in triplets, then for every of the 3 long beats, there must be x triplets. Sounds complicated, but really isnt't. Here's 11:3
Code
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--
+          +          +          

3⅔ right hand beats per one beat in the left hand. Clapping this at a slow tempo like left hand beat = 60 isn't even very hard I think...

As is pointed out several times already, in Chopin's music these are not meant to be played exactly in time. But I still like to learn how to play everything exactly in time before I add the rubato. Partly because I think knowing the original rhythm is essential for making a good rubato, and partly (this is actually most likely the main reason) because I'm a sucker for polyrhythms and want to learn to control as many variants as possible as well as possible.

Re: Irregular number of notes on one beat [Re: RogerW] #1315613
12/01/09 02:07 AM
12/01/09 02:07 AM
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Good question ... how to mesh 11/6 notes (RH/LH) to 3rd and 4th measures of the Chopin Nocturne Opus 9-1 in B-flat minor.

However, if the proportion had been 12/6 (ie. twice as many RH notes to LH ...) we’d have no problem in picking up the "chiming second note". ..

the secret is to stretch the first RH note to match the duration of the LH ...

which then brings all the other notes in line with the "chiming second note" ... the fractional tweak will not be noticed and with practice in generating a steady LH 6-note rhythm ...
the RH might even match the 11/6 score.

[Linked Image]

Re: Irregular number of notes on one beat [Re: RogerW] #1315619
12/01/09 02:19 AM
12/01/09 02:19 AM
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Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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Originally Posted by RogerW
[...]As is pointed out several times already, in Chopin's music these are not meant to be played exactly in time. [...]I think knowing the original rhythm is essential for making a good rubato, [...]


Aren't you contradicting yourself here? If, in such fioritura, the notes in the right hand "are not meant" to be played exactly in time against those in the left, what do you mean by "the original rhythm"? Or, to put it another way, the "original rhythm" is established by the time signature of 6/4 - a simple 6 beats per measure; it's the left hand that keeps the "original rhythm" going at a steady pace.

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: Irregular number of notes on one beat [Re: BruceD] #1315650
12/01/09 04:54 AM
12/01/09 04:54 AM
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RogerW Offline
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Originally Posted by BruceD
what do you mean by "the original rhythm"?

With that I mean the rhythm as written. But please note that I'm by no means saying that it has to be done my way, I probably wouldn't even recommend it to my own students with rhythms more complex than 4:3. My previous post was mostly a reply to the claim that dividing 3 beats by 11 precisely right would be impossible. It's not.

Re: Irregular number of notes on one beat [Re: RogerW] #1315931
12/01/09 01:55 PM
12/01/09 01:55 PM
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RogerW :

Yes, I can appreciate the intellectual exercise of figuring out the precise notation. I was being a bit of a pain for no real reason; sorry about that.

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: Irregular number of notes on one beat [Re: RogerW] #1315970
12/01/09 02:37 PM
12/01/09 02:37 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 24,380
New York City
pianoloverus Offline
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Originally Posted by RogerW
Originally Posted by david_a
Dividing the beat precisely and evenly by 11 is not possible at slow tempo, if it's possible at all.

Sure it is possible. Whatever polyrhythm x against 3 is easily divided precisely by dividing all beats of x in triplets, then for every of the 3 long beats, there must be x triplets. Sounds complicated, but really isnt't. Here's 11:3
Code
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--
+          +          +          

3⅔ right hand beats per one beat in the left hand. Clapping this at a slow tempo like left hand beat = 60 isn't even very hard I think...

As is pointed out several times already, in Chopin's music these are not meant to be played exactly in time. But I still like to learn how to play everything exactly in time before I add the rubato. Partly because I think knowing the original rhythm is essential for making a good rubato, and partly (this is actually most likely the main reason) because I'm a sucker for polyrhythms and want to learn to control as many variants as possible as well as possible.


I think trying to learn how to play this passage exactly "in time" is a huge waste of time. I'm Chopin never even conceived of anyone thinking about it this way. The only possible reason IMO to do this is for your own interest. I think it has absolute no practical value.

Re: Irregular number of notes on one beat [Re: wr] #1316485
12/02/09 04:58 AM
12/02/09 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by sotto voce


If the left hand is truly secure, the whole passage will be stable.



I would just add that when Chopin himself taught this nocturne, he had the student learn just the accompaniment part alone first, with a metronome and splitting it between hands. I think this was to get the ear and brain set on what it should sound like, as much as anything.


Oops! The nocturne I was thinking of is no. 2 of op. 9, not no. 1. Sorry. (And since I don't have a copy of Eigeldinger handy, I am not sure I am even remembering that correctly.)


Re: Irregular number of notes on one beat [Re: wr] #1316931
12/02/09 05:46 PM
12/02/09 05:46 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,990
Haverhill, Massachusetts
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John Citron Offline
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Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by sotto voce


If the left hand is truly secure, the whole passage will be stable.



I would just add that when Chopin himself taught this nocturne, he had the student learn just the accompaniment part alone first, with a metronome and splitting it between hands. I think this was to get the ear and brain set on what it should sound like, as much as anything.


Oops! The nocturne I was thinking of is no. 2 of op. 9, not no. 1. Sorry. (And since I don't have a copy of Eigeldinger handy, I am not sure I am even remembering that correctly.)



No, I think you are correct, WR. My piano teacher and I were discussing this at my last lesson, and she mentioned the same thing. I've started finishing up this Nocturne for my upcoming piano performance jury. I have things to work on, but she complimment me on my steady left hand. smile We'll see how I mush it up when it comes time to play it in front of the faculty.

John


Current works in progress:

Beethoven Sonata Op. 10 No. 2 in F, Haydn Sonata Hoboken XVI:41, Bach French Suite No. 5 in G BWV 816

Current instruments: Schimmel-Vogel 177T grand, Roland LX-17 digital, and John Lyon unfretted Saxon clavichord.
Re: Irregular number of notes on one beat [Re: Diablo] #1318306
12/04/09 12:59 PM
12/04/09 12:59 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 39
In a Cornfield, Illinois, USA
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RSP1 Offline
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In a Cornfield, Illinois, USA
Hey Everyone,

I was following the discussion on this thread and came up with some ideas that might help. I've always had problems with these odd numbered fioratura passages, so, having way too much time on my hands, I started looking for possible solutions. I've never been successful with the common denominator for any but the smallest (3 against 2; 4 against 3) problems.

Anyway, I started looking at the musical figures involved and found myself on the road to solving the problem last night.

(I'm using measure numbers as in the Paderewski Ed. which starts measure 1 at the first full measure.)

I've heard it said before that these passages are Chopin's specific indication for Rubato playing. He wrote these "odd" rhythms because our system of rhythmic notation is inadequate.

In the 1st instance in measure 2, the first 4 notes are the initial theme essentially at twice the speed of the initial pickups, the next 4 represent a turn followed by a 3 note termination. This three note pattern shows up throughout Chopin indicated as a triplet (which it does at measure 72). This gives us approximately 4:2, 4:2, and 3:2 (the 3:2 is in effect a slight rit. into the next measure. As you get comfortable with it metrically, start playing with letting the R.H. getting out of sync (so easy to do when we DON'T want to.)

Measure 3, in the first 11 notes is ornamenting the 3 F's of measure one. The second F comes a little early, and the 3rd one is delayed. If you got rid of the other notes, essentially Chopin has written a rubato. The grouping is 4, 4, 3. Then in the next 11 you have 2 notes leading into a short trill with termination (Db C Db C B C F E Eb| Db).

All together, the grouping for the measure is 4; 4; 3; 2 ; 6; 3. Think of the Change from 4 to 3 to 2 as representing a slight rit. The group of 6 represents a slight accel. with another slight rit. on the final 3 into measure 4. Once you get these basic melodic units in approximate rhythmic place you can start to smooth out the differences.

I hope that this has been of some help.

Scott

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