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Re: Estonia 190 and Steinway A - which retains its value more?
pianoloverus #1318046 12/04/09 03:45 AM
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Am I being too counter-culture if I said that the **real** value of an Estonia vs a similar Steinway is the inner feeling one gets after playing to oneself what one wants to ... The sound, (a subject all in itself I know), the tactile response to the keys, et al, - surely **this** is what really makes all quality pianos 'valuable' to their players/owners??? There must be those who agree??

Ori gave his 2c worth - this is just my half cent contribution ..


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Re: Estonia 190 and Steinway A - which retains its value more?
Semper Bösendorfer #1318051 12/04/09 04:24 AM
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I should add to the above that given Steinway's recent, albeit modest, agreement with Samick, I have a feeling that sometime in the future, with a revised agreement, one will see a 'Steinway Family' (sic) model built by Samick in Indonesia.

Should this occur, then with respect, I have the greatest difficulty in seeing how even the non-dollar 'value' of the Samick-Steinway would have the same sound/tactile feel qualities and values I cherish.

At least with an Estonia, what you see is what you get with no surprises down the track. I may stand corrected of course, but would very much doubt it!

If all of the Steinway Family (sic) were restricted to Hamburg, now *that* would be interesting to say the least!


"Oh for a world with no 'muzak' in stores ...."
Re: Estonia 190 and Steinway A - which retains its value more?
Semper Bösendorfer #1318096 12/04/09 08:12 AM
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In terms of the % depreciation schedule given in The Piano Buyer, the advantage of Steinway(if, in fact, there really is any compared to Estonia or others)is only around 6%. I think this is more reason why resale value should be of little consideration to most buyers.

What's the use of having a piano you don't love as another much as another piano for 10 years if you might be able to get 6% more when you sell it?

Last edited by pianoloverus; 12/04/09 08:14 AM.
Re: Estonia 190 and Steinway A - which retains its value more?
pianoloverus #1318101 12/04/09 08:18 AM
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I think the question we have to ask the poster is how much does he really want a piano he can play on. For all we know, he is some deep-pocketed person that plays the piano somewhat casually but at the same time wants a piece of furniture with a good name on it so if he tires, he doesn't lose too much of the investment. Maybe one should consider the piano you love more, but if he's not an avid player that might be in the position to move one day, resale should be on the top of his buying list.


Louis Bousquet
Re: Estonia 190 and Steinway A - which retains its value more?
Louis H. Bousquet #1318131 12/04/09 09:08 AM
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Louis, thanks for bringing this back to the OP. We've had posters innocently ask questions like this just to stir up a hornets nest. This discussion has been an interesting morning read, but it's been had before. The lack of detail and "story" in the OP indicates to me it was never a serious inquiry.


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Re: Estonia 190 and Steinway A - which retains its value more?
Steve Chandler #1318146 12/04/09 09:36 AM
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Just a point of information, the OP owns a Steinway K52 after owning an Essex.

Re: Estonia 190 and Steinway A - which retains its value more?
Steve Chandler #1318160 12/04/09 09:46 AM
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Seems like everyone who has voiced an opinion in this thread has a "dog in the race." Being a recent purchaser of a rebuilt Steinway, I guess I do also. So with that caveat, let me say this: in the last 150+ years less than 600,000 Steinways were built. Probably close to half that number represents Steinway grands that ares till in existence today. Beyond the musical value of a Steinway, there is the prestige value (like it or not). With nearly 2 billion people in the emerging Asian markets becoming comsumers of luxury goods for the first time, one can only expect that the world-wide demand for well restored Steinways will continue to increase. Other makes may be better a value or better instruments, but looking at the global economy, only Steinway has the allure than transcends musicans. Like Western households one hundred years ago, I believe more and more Eastern households and businesses will want to own a Steinway, just for the prestige, in addition to the musical value.

That being said, I believe the resale market for Steinway will outstrip every other brand, for the forseeable future. Ask anyone who is not a pianist what the finest piano is, and I bet 99 out of 100 people will say Steinway. That relates to high resale value.

Remember, the global market is absorbing about 800,000 new Rolex watches every year, not to mention the 100,000's of used rolex watches being purchased. The growth in that market is the Far East. With the couple of 100,000 Steinway grands in existence, it doesn't take too much imagination to anticipate a demand way out of proportion to supply.

My money is on Steinway. But then again, I owned GM stock too frown.

Last edited by nylawbiz; 12/04/09 09:47 AM.
Re: Estonia 190 and Steinway A - which retains its value mor
nylawbiz #1318164 12/04/09 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by nylawbiz


That being said, I believe the resale market for Steinway will outstrip every other brand, for the forseeable future. Ask anyone who is not a pianist what the finest piano is, and I bet 99 out of 100 people will say Steinway. That relates to high resale value.



I have to agree to disagree with this statement. I think you are WAY overestimating the ability of non-pianists to even NAME a piano company today. I'm serious.


Charles R. Walter 1520 QA Mahogany #531739 w/ High Polish, Renner and Quiet Pedal
Re: Estonia 190 and Steinway A - which retains its value mor
mahermusic #1318178 12/04/09 10:21 AM
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I wouldn't be too sure about name recognition and the American consumer. Not long ago Cadillac was king of the hill, and now GM is bankrupt with an Asian car with the name TOYota in great demand.
With cable TV 24/7 news and entertainment, and the internet, recognition of a person or product can skyrocket overnight. When Steinway himself started building pianos people probably were initally wary despite how they initially performed.

Possibly in the future a hand made, limited production quality piano such as Estonia might become much sought-after, and will certainly be more rare than a Steinway of that vintage


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Re: Estonia 190 and Steinway A - which retains its value mor
Stanza #1318186 12/04/09 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Stanza
I wouldn't be too sure about name recognition and the American consumer. Not long ago Cadillac was king of the hill, and now GM is bankrupt with an Asian car with the name TOYota in great demand.
With cable TV 24/7 news and entertainment, and the internet, recognition of a person or product can skyrocket overnight. When Steinway himself started building pianos people probably were initally wary despite how they initially performed.

Possibly in the future a hand made, limited production quality piano such as Estonia might become much sought-after, and will certainly be more rare than a Steinway of that vintage


150 years of brand development and recognition is hard to overcome. I hope I live long enough to see Estonia's name eclipse Steinway's! As for Cadillac vs. Toyota, what happened was Cadillacs became junk, and Toyotas became the benchmark of dependability. I have no reason to believe Steinway's quality is going to deteriorate the way GM cars did. Oh, and btw, Tiger woods drives a Cadillac, so there's still something in the name.

Re: Estonia 190 and Steinway A - which retains its value more?
nylawbiz #1318198 12/04/09 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by nylawbiz
Seems like everyone who has voiced an opinion in this thread has a "dog in the race."
Not me.
Originally Posted by nylaw biz
That being said, I believe the resale market for Steinway will outstrip every other brand, for the forseeable future. Ask anyone who is not a pianist what the finest piano is, and I bet 99 out of 100 people will say Steinway. That relates to high resale value.


In terms of number of used/rebuilt high end pianos sold, my guess is that Steinway has probably the highest number. I also suspect there were many more Steinway pianos built than other high end pianos.

In terms of just numbers of used/rebuilt pianos sold in the last 30 years, my guess is that Yamaha has sold many more than Steinway. One cannot compare numbers of used Estonias resold to number of used/rebuilt Steinways because Estonia as we know it has been around for such a short period of time and produces a much smaller number of pianos/year.

In terms of Steinway holding its value more than other pianos:
1. The Piano Buyer gives Steinway a small edge of about 6%.
2, There was a thread here and, I believe, an article in The Complete Idiot's Guide to Buying a Piano which said that Yamaha had held its value over the last around 30 years just as well as Steinway.
3. Posts in this thread by Ori and Norbert seem to indicate Estonia has held its value as least as well as Steinway.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 12/04/09 10:46 AM.
Re: Estonia 190 and Steinway A - which retains its value more?
pianoloverus #1318334 12/04/09 01:30 PM
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Any person that one may encounter in all walks of life,upon mention of Steinway will relate it as a piano of acquired excellence that upon generation upon generation has established a name / brand noteriety and to many prestige along with it. One can't overcome that built reputation or establish that rep overnight.
It's true that the piano industry is constantly changing but public perception outside of PW moves conservatively at a snails pace. Estonia is a piano revered by many pianists but at present in the real world,it is a country in eastern Europe.


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Re: Estonia 190 and Steinway A - which retains its value more?
pianoloverus #1318337 12/04/09 01:31 PM
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To me there is a difference which piano has, is or *will be* keeping its value best in future.

Which piano exactly will do better than others - I hate the term *best* - is something that may still in the making as time goes by.

It's somewhat like predicting stock values - not all that shines is later gold.

If you buy high don't expect to always get your price later.

One thing to keep an eye on IMHO will be future ratings by Larry Fine, company performance and the esteem or market aceptance makes are going to enjoy in future.

The brands mentioned may show different performance in each category.

To me it's a yet somewhat unwritten chapter in the making.

Personally I prefer to buy low and sell high.

Let's see if this will be different when it comes to these pianos in future.

Norbert

Last edited by Norbert; 12/04/09 01:32 PM.

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Re: Estonia 190 and Steinway A - which retains its value mor
pianobroker #1318376 12/04/09 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by pianobroker
Any person that one may encounter in all walks of life,upon mention of Steinway will relate it as a piano of acquired excellence that upon generation upon generation has established a name / brand noteriety and to many prestige along with it.


Nope. I disagree. Mention "Cadillac" to 100 people, all ages, and (whether you believe it's junk or not) they equate it to the upper crust.

Take the same 100 people and mention "Steinway", and you'd get many blank stares. MANY blank stares. If you've never played, and you parents have never played, probably your only experience even seeing a piano was from your public school years... in the front of the stage. I can guarantee you that that piano was not a Steinway.

Not trying to start a war, but I believe it's the truth. Yes, of course you can disagree with me. Many people in my development of 330 $600,000 + homes (no, we're not rich... it's just New Jersey) have Caddys in the driveway. I only know of two of us even WITH a piano. Mine's a Walter, theirs is a Yamaha. Times are 'a changin'.


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Re: Estonia 190 and Steinway A - which retains its value more?
Norbert #1318494 12/04/09 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Norbert

Personally I prefer to buy low and sell high.


Norbert



That's one strategy, but some people prefer to buy quality right now and hold on to it. wink

fingers


Playing piano at age 2, it was thought that I was some sort of idiot-savant. As it turns out, I'm just an idiot.
Re: Estonia 190 and Steinway A - which retains its value mor
mahermusic #1318507 12/04/09 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by mahermusic
Originally Posted by pianobroker
Any person that one may encounter in all walks of life,upon mention of Steinway will relate it as a piano of acquired excellence that upon generation upon generation has established a name / brand noteriety and to many prestige along with it.


Nope. I disagree. Mention "Cadillac" to 100 people, all ages, and (whether you believe it's junk or not) they equate it to the upper crust.

Take the same 100 people and mention "Steinway", and you'd get many blank stares. MANY blank stares. If you've never played, and you parents have never played, probably your only experience even seeing a piano was from your public school years... in the front of the stage. I can guarantee you that that piano was not a Steinway.

Not trying to start a war, but I believe it's the truth. Yes, of course you can disagree with me. Many people in my development of 330 $600,000 + homes (no, we're not rich... it's just New Jersey) have Caddys in the driveway. I only know of two of us even WITH a piano. Mine's a Walter, theirs is a Yamaha. Times are 'a changin'.


Fair enough. But stop a hundred people in the street and ask them 'Have you heard of Steinway, Estonia, or Charles Water pianos?' And the vast majority (even if it's 10 out of a 100 will recognize Steinway before the others. Stop 100 *pianists* in the street and they've all heard of Steinway but many (maybe even most) don't know the name Estonia or Charles Walter.


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Re: Estonia 190 and Steinway A - which retains its value mor
AJF #1318517 12/04/09 06:34 PM
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10 out of 100 recognizing the Steinway brand? Now that's realistic. Even 100% of PIANISTS knowing the Steinway brand is realistic. I just had to question nylawbiz (and again, it's okay to disagree) on his statement that asking anyone who is NOT a pianist what the world's finest piano is, and 99 out of 100 will say "Steinway".

(And, yes, you're correct... no one's heard of a Walter before where I live!)


Charles R. Walter 1520 QA Mahogany #531739 w/ High Polish, Renner and Quiet Pedal
Re: Estonia 190 and Steinway A - which retains its value mor
mahermusic #1318532 12/04/09 06:55 PM
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Walter's are one of those 'best kept secrets' smile


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Re: Estonia 190 and Steinway A - which retains its value mor
AJF #1318562 12/04/09 07:23 PM
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A piano "holding its value" is not a very useful concept because the market for pianos is minuscule compared to that for cars or houses. When someone tries to sell a car or a house, if they price it according to condition and the trends current at that time, then it will almost certainly sell because there are (nearly!) always buyers for houses and cars. Someone trying to sell a piano has no such assurance. You can set a fair and honest price and get no sale, because there are just not that many piano buyers looking for anything, and the so-called "trends" in the piano "market" are not reliable due to small numbers.

So you buy the piano that's right for your purposes now, and for the future you just hope.

Some people buy the name only, others buy the piano only, others want both.


(I'm a piano teacher.)
Re: Estonia 190 and Steinway A - which retains its value mor
david_a #1318617 12/04/09 08:41 PM
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Quote
That's one strategy, but some people prefer to buy quality right now and hold on to it.


You *can* buy quality in today's market and still not pay the price.... wink

Agreeing with David's above post: it's exactly what our last 2 customers for .... had said!

May everybody enjoy his/her piano!

Norbert thumb


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