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You obviously haven't been around here long enough. He's been repeating this same "refreshing" viewpoint constantly for at least 2 years. Copy/Pasted i might add. Gyro is a great guy I'm sure but... well...

The mic vs. mixer board thing was an analogy...

IMHO Williams < Casios and everyone here knows it, and yup, I've tried a Williams.

LesCharles, getting back closer to the subject, why do you think companies put light action graded touch keyboards on their pianos?

I'm thinking of those made by Yamaha, for example, the NP-30, and some by Casio as well.

What's the purpose behind it, in your view?

I know these instruments sell extremely well from my buddies who are in the retail end of it....who would buy such a curious blend of actions?

Snazzy

I believe that a digital piano's goal is to replicate acoustic pianos as accurately as possible - even if it means incorporating some 'necessary evils' ie escapement and graded touch.

Also, many digital piano players also play acoustic (sometimes professionally) and will not accept something that is not as close to the real thing as possible.

Benefits may include:
-Authenticity/Realism
-Dynamic Control
-Ease of Transition back to acoustic, and/or from an acoustic
-Previous Familiarity with graded touch on acoustic
-I'll think of others

Thanks for asking!

EDIT: Did you mean acoustic pianos? If so I really have no idea. My guess is that it's a Newton Law that can't be fully avoided, or that's just the way that it's been for hundreds of years so it's accepted.

No, not quite, my friend...I'm wondering why Yamaha and Casio digital pianos use light action (unweighted), but it is graded from bottom to top, similar to graded weighted hammer, but, of course with much less resistance.


You have played a Yamaha NP-30, or a Casio with similar unweighted graded action.

Why would they use this, as it feels nothing like a piano?

Snazzy

snazzyplayer I am pretty sure that every single piano which is advertised with "graded" action is supposed to emulate perfectly the real feel of a piano. so when it says graded hammer action, they mean to sell you a completely realistic piano. some of these digital pianos have springs and obviously they feel like synths, even if the spring is just as hard to press as a piano it doesn't feel the same. of course if you build a digital piano with springs instead of weighted keys it will be hundreds of dollars cheaper and weigh half as much.

I suppose it's possible one day they will find some kind of mechanical spring that will perfectly emulate a real piano, that's the goal anyway, but to the average consumer, if you are buying piano A with springs that costs $500 less than than piano B with weights they won't care that it uses unweighted keys as long as there is some sort of half ass effort to make it feel somewhat like a piano, or at least more like a piano than an accordian.

So, Joe, do you think the Yamaha NP-30, that has unweighted graded action, feels as much like a piano, as a digital that has weighted graded hammer action, as on the Yamaha P-85?

Why would a manufacturer use graded unweighted action in place of graded weighted hammer action? What would be it's purpose?

I think you might be missing the crux of my question.

Snazzy

Hi everybody.

First I'll say that I've spent a lot of years playing guitar (classical, acoustic and electric). I also owned an upright piano (W.H. Barnes) and some keyboards too. Now I'm waiting for a Kawai CN32.

My acoustic piano was a second hand, and came in a very bad condition. I worked a lot trying to improve its state, and get it a little better.

Well, I say that because I know what's the feeling of a "real" instrument, and I preffer it all the way.

I remember the feeling of the vibrations on the keys of the acoustic piano, the response to the touch, the action of the pedals... even I could say that you have a better feeling when playing guitar, your hands directly on the strings (sorry, I loved piano, then guitar and now I returning to piano ;-)).

As you guess, I'm talking about expression and feeling... and thats the reason to look for a graded keyboard if yo want to play the piano (acoustic or digital). The Kawai keyboard and response was very familiar to me, because I've played an acoustic. This doesn't mean electric keyboards are a bad option, I enjoy a lot playing mine, but I miss the feedback of a real piano. Anyway, I know that a digital piano will not be able to produce that feeling (who knows in the future), but there are options very close.

Digital pianos try to get all the advantages of a real piano, and dismiss the "worst" (volume, tunning...), and in fact, one of the best things is the graded hammer action.

Trying out a Kawai DP recently, I noticed there was quite a bit of vibration in the keys. I don't know if this is a deliberate design decision by Kawai, or just some kind of random resonance. But it was conspicuous, because normally the keys on a DP feel "dead", and I think it was only one Kawai model that seemed to "buzz" like that. Of course the AvantGrand does feature key vibration, but I don't recall reading anything similar about Kawais...

I have not yet played a digital that feels or sounds exactly like a real grand piano.

Some have come very close but digital pianos are basically all the same as far as feedback is concerned.

Sure, some of them even have actual grand piano actions, but they still have hardly any more soul than when digitals first came out, because they all do not give realistic tactile feedback. The keys feel like they are connected to hammers, but these hammers do not feel like they are in a real piano.

All, that is, except the Yamaha Avant Grand...that is a piano with the soul of an acoustic grand piano. It is a piano that makes you feel like you are playing a real grand piano.

Yet, it has all the benefits of a digital piano. Brilliant!

I can see other brands attempt to copy the Avant Grands incredible soul, but, Yamaha was first.

I'm seriously thinking about getting one for my master bedroom.

Snazzy

Martin,

I think someone forgot to tighten a few bolts and screws in that Kawai ...every one I've played is as dead as the rest of the digitals.

They make pretty good digitals, but no where near as realistic as the Avant Grand.

I believe Yamaha has raised the bar considerably in regards to tactile feedback.

Snazzy

I think Yamaha has always take advantage from the rest, but I chose the Kawai for some personal reaons.

I remember have read about something similar to keyboard vibration, but I can't remember brand or model, but the idea is there. Perhaps, it coul be possible due to the speakers vibration. If a mobile phone can vibrate, why not a piano key?

That can be a very good expresion improvement, in the same way that graded hammer action is fantastic for the accuracy.

I'm certainly not knocking the Kawai products, Angel...they make exceptionally fine digital pianos. I'm sure you will be more than pleased with your new instrument.

The digital pianos I have presently, do not give feedback like the Avant Grand, and they are very satisfactory, although my Yamaha CP-300 does give a nice impression of a piano sounding right in front of you, but that's because of it's very powerful speaker system.

Most important is how the instrument makes you feel as you play.

My 20 year old Roland HP-1700 still gives me a rush when I play it.

Snazzy

Well I think I have my answer to this question, that that is:

_All_ acoustic pianos have scaled hammer action.

In that case, it's clear that they'd do it on a digital to come closer to the feel of an acoustic.

(I had previously believed that only grand pianos had scaled actions -- i.e., the bass keys heavier than the treble -- and not upright pianos, and thought it must be considered an advantage over uprights, but wasn't sure why.)

Yes, Sean, but why would some digitals have scaled, or graded actions that are unweighted...much like a synth action on a portable keyboard?

What would be the benefits, other than a tad more control in the bass, and a lighter weighted instrument?

Yamaha calls the action, Graded Soft-Touch...I don't know what Casio calls theirs.

Maybe it is an expense issue?

I found a review on the 'Net that may explain a bit.

The Yamaha NP30 may not come with a weighted action keyboard but I love the Graded Soft-Touch keyboard it comes with. It has different levels of resistance in different ranges of the keyboard. I guess you can't have your cake and eat it as moving hammers would have made the Yamaha NP 30 a heavy instrument. This lightweight digital piano is perfect for pianists looking to take their music anywhere.

Snazzy

Yes, the AvantGrand seems to be great. I wanted to try the N3 the other day too, but unfortunately somebody else was playing it the whole time I was in the store. They need to introduce an AvantGrand time limit. They also had a relatively low-price acoustic grand which I played instead, and my impression was that my playing on the grand drowned out the sound of all the other DPs, including the N3. So in the end I would have preferred the acoustic, except that playing softly on it was next to impossible.

DPs, even the N3, still seem to have a slightly weak sound compared to an acoustic--although in the case of the P-85, I just got myself the wooden stand, and the sound is much improved, because the speakers at the bottom are no longer obstructed by a table...

Maybe I should take another trip to the store, to see if I can try the N3 and which one of the Kawai DPs it was exactly that "buzzed".

I suppose if the volume is turned up enough, you will always feel a little vibration in the keys, but in this case the volume was not set exceptionally high.

Martin,

At first I thought the Avant Grand was all hype...till I played it.

Very nearly got my money that day, but I'm doing some remodeling, and will wait until it's done before I indulge myself in the pleasure of the Avant Grand experience.

Imagine if Roland's V-Piano had this kind of tactile feedback?

That's all it's missing, in my opinion.

My CP-300 will transmit some vibrations from it's powerful speaker system, even at lower volumes, but it does not feel anything like the response from the Avant Grand...else, I'd stick with the former.

I think you'll be as impressed as I was.

Snazzy

Yes, I was impressed, both by the N2 and N3 (but I preferred the N3). On the cheap acoustic, it was simply to difficult to produce anything but a booming volume, so that's where the N3 is much, much better.

The Kawai vibration mystery piano turned out to have been a CN-22. I felt some vibration at C3, and a slight hint at C4. I also noticed the same effect on a Casio Celviano. So no, it's nothing like the AvantGrand, because it's just limited to two octaves or so...

I also liked the ugly duckling of DPs, the SP-250, quite a bit, particularly the non-piano patches like choir, harpsichord, and guitar. And the piano patch sounded much better over its built-in speakers than the web site demo over headphones. It's pretty unfortunate the whole device looks like something out of the 1972 Radio Shack catalogue...

Martin,

I've got four digital pianos...four...and I still want that Avant Grand!

It's like a friend of mine says, "I never tell people how many keyboards I went through...if they suspect I’m crazy, I don’t want to confirm it."

The Korg SP-250 is like that ugly girl (or guy, ladies!) that can dance like a sonofagun and is a great time, but you wouldn't want to take them home.

The new SV-1 isn't much handsomer, but it has a retro look rather than an old look...haven't tried one yet....have you?

I really dislike software pianos...I want an actual instrument...I think that's why the Avant Grand appeals to me so much. It's like my Hammond B-3 and has an "alive" feeling...Rhodes and Wurly pianos are like that, too, although the latter is just too much hassle keeping in tune with all that adding solder, and filing it off. Arrrgghh!

I'm looking forward to your impressions of the Avant Grand, as you seem quite open minded and unbiased about what will work for you.

Snazzy