Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum tuning hammer for a Mason Hamlin grand?

Hi,

I own a Mason Hamlin BB.
I'm prepping to tune my piano.

On reading the Reblitz book, I learned that good hammer technique is to put the hammer on the pin so that the handle is parallel and away from the string at about a 5 o'clock position. He says " you'll have the least tendency to bend the pins as you tune" this way.

He goes on to say you should have your elbow firmly resting on the piano so that as a right handed person pushing will tighten the string.

Now, I do have a simple student type tuning hammer but doing what Reblitz suggests means that the handle of the hammer does not end up being high enough to clear the board above the keys ( sorry, don't have the term for it)

So, I guess I have two options. Put the hammer at a different angle with the handle pointed away from the keys

or buy another hammer or tip extension. Of course my 'student' hammer has a 2 1/2 inch tip screwed on to the handle.

So, my question for you guys:

Do you use Reblitz's technique?
If so, how do you extend up over the 2 1/2 inch height of the wood between the keys and the pin block?

I have searched extensively the various tuning hammers, I'm just not sure if this is really that important to do it from the above mentioned angle.

thanks,
Neil

You have one of the finest pianos available today. Work with your tuner to make sure you have the correct sized tip for your pins, and to learn the correct technique.

It would be a shame to accidentally damage such a piano. You shouldn't be learning from an online forum: it's like playing tennis by mail.

--Cy--

The questions you are asking indicate that you should work with a pro as a mentor. Cy is right. That's a very fine instrument that can easily be damaged by inexperience.

Try working on a junker to find out what tuning entails. That way, the inevitable missteps won't ruin a fine piano.

I share Cy's and David's opinions. Unless this is a really old, beat up piano, you're better off getting a beater for $100.00 or so (roughly the price of a tuning) to practice on.

I use a different technique to tune. I hold the hammer with the handle away from me, pointing towards the tail, maybe at around one or two o'clock.

I pull to raise the pitch, and push to lower.

... diff'rent strokes ...

That is called "flag-poling", and bends the tuning pin. It also ovals out the top of the hole in the pinblock. There's a whole lot to know just to manipulate the pin and the lever. In fact, "Different Strokes" is just one of the books written on the topic.

--Cy--

Thanks for your all your concerns about my piano. The point is that I want to do the best for it. Learning to tune it is just an extension of being a musician and making my piano my own. So, if you are too worried, it's fine, I understand.

Anyway, it sounds like you guys agree with Reblitz. What sort of hammer do you use to get over the wood then?

I found a page that lists various solutions-
http://www.mypianoshop.com/store/home.php?cat=43&sort=orderby&sort_direction=0&page=4



thanks
Neil

Neil, why don't you at least hire a professional tuner for the first tuning. Watch, discreetly from a distance and try to pick up some of the answers to your many questions. Then you can observe some of the techniques for yourself.

Though the Reblitz book is a fine source, much of what is in there is not current practice. I'm not sure I'd agree at all with the tuning hammer technique you described. Certainly not the way I position the lever.

Hi Dale,

It's OK. I have a tuner who does an fine job. If i get too lost with this, I'll just give him a call( and I imagine pay him extra for the extra work )
I have hired two different tuners. But I wasn't thinking about this detail when they were here. On the other hand, I don't recall either of them having a hammer that would extend over the wood opposite the strings.
How about this? Anyone in Seattle want to come give me a tuning lesson? Yep, I'm sure I can call the local guild or one of my tuners. I know there is a sizable learning curve here. I'm happy to do my homework though.

Neil

So, if you are too worried, it's fine, I understand.

You missed the point - it is you who should be worried.
Learning to tune pianos is not necessarily an extension of musicianship. It is a craft all by itself and takes years to master.
Your enthusiasm is a good start and I am certain that you can learn if you want to invest the time and effort required to properly learn the necessary skills.
There is a great PTG chapter in Seattle - I would suggest that you attend a meeting and meet the pros - it would be a demonstration of your desire to learn then you can connect up with someone willing to help - a much better approach to this imho.
Purchasing a student hammer was your first mistake, using it to turn pins on a BB would be another.

Thanks guys. I guess I'll ask elsewhere.

This is my path, this is what I intend to do, it's my piano, I really didn't expect this to end up being about me. In the end though, it's all about me because this is my dream just like it was your dream to become a tuner.

Bottom line, everyone starts somewhere. And I didn't miss anyones point. I really think on the contrary there was only one person here that actually answered my question

I have wanted to learn to tune pianos for over thirty years. At this point even if I ended up totally destroying my beloved Mason Hamlin it would be worth the fact that I had the courage to try to do what I wanted to do. After all, my life is about trying to improve and learn, not about protecting what I happen to be fortunate to own.

Always mystifies me the barriers people try to put up. I respect you or what you have learned to do. Frankly though, I have plenty of brains to do the same, and so I will.

Neil

Neil:

Buy a better hammer with an extension. Resting your elbow is not as important as pulling the hammer straight in the same plane as the pinblock otherwise you will bend pins. I like to keep the handle about the 2-4 o'clock position. Small movements produce the results you want. Too much movement and you add too much tension and will break a string. Sounds like for you, though, that would just be another learning opportunity.

You do have an exquisite piano. Proceed, and be cautious and deliberate. Use all resources you can. This forum, books, dvds, consult with your tech, etc. I admire your desire to learn.

I don't know very many techs who push on the handle to raise the pitch, if any. I and others I know pull the lever from about 1-3 o'clock, depending on pin position. Pushing on the pin to tighten it offers virtually zero control for me. I was always taught "12 o'clock, give or take a couple of hours."

The point is, you want to turn the pin, not bend it. Bending it, as Cy says will cause damage to the hole.

I have a couple of occasional customers who do a creditable job of tuning their own pianos. Like you, they seem to be intelligent and sincere in their quest for knowledge. It isn't rocket science, but it does take a fair amount of practice to get proficient enough to be pleased with your own results.

Be cautious, have patience.

This post illustrates a problem that comes up again and again with DIY tuners. If a question is asked that reveals a woeful lack of basic knowledge it becomes very difficult to make suggestions that will not insult the questioner.

Inevitably the original poster takes to insulting the technicians, and very little is gained on either side.

DIYers, take some courses. Get some mentoring. That's really the best course.

Thanks Alan,

So, it sounds like your hammer position is normally perpendicular to the string. And I get what you are saying about trying to keep the torque in the same plane as the pin movement.

This gets to the central issue I wonder about and which Reblitz has me concerned about. Because if I buy, say, a four inch long tip for my current hammer to get over the wood above the keys, it just seems that the longer tip may put more bending force into the pin. I suppose, similarly, too much angle used may do the same thing.

In other words, my thought is that the shorter the tip the better for minimizing pin bending forces. In looking at the available levers, it appears that many lever makers do seem to keep that part of their lever short.

In any event, it just sounds like I need to ignore Reblitz's advise ( parallel to string, handle away ) on this one.

I did read a whole thread from last year here about levers. It sounded to me like you all have your faves.

I had some fun last night checking out some of the pricey tuning levers. I especially liked the Fujan or maybe the Jahn. Problem with all that is I wouldn't know in detail how to configure such a purchase. To some extent thats what I'd like someone's advise on if they care to write about it.

I did find a nice article on Fujan use here http://thundermush.com/fujan/

Again, perhaps it doesn't matter that much about tip angle or length. That would be interesting to understand too.

Anyway, I can understand that this subject may be hard to detail without being able to show it. I probably need to seek out video(s) like you said.



Neil

If you're going to get a pricy tuning hammer, check out Charles Faulk. He has pictures and descriptions of what he has available, no configuring involved.

I'd be happy to take back whatever you may have thought was insulting in any of my posts David. As I see it, everything I have said was a statement of my position.

I have read many posts recently where long time piano tuners are taking issue with each other, so apparently even after years in the field, there is plenty to discuss, argue about, whatever.

On the other hand, sure, I can see there would be plenty of reasons an experienced tuner might role their eyes at my post. That's fine, I can handle it.

On this particular subject though, as I am apparently finding out, there seems to be at least some divergence of opinion, and especially from what Reblitz said in his book.

I suppose if this is just too elemental to be interesting to you, why not just move on to the next post? Like I said before, this just happens to be where I'm at right now. Sure, if and when I can find a teacher, that sounds good to me.

I really do respect your profession and find it amazing that people can count 4.5 or whatever beats in 5 seconds. Takes a long time to learn. So I'm at the beginning of my journey

Neil

I am not a tech but I do own a new BB. I agree with all the tech posts.

But even excluding the danger of harming the piano, don't you think a good experienced tuner could do a better job of tuning?

Dave offers sound advise...

Yes, I like Dave's advise. I do think it would be interesting to hear from a tech about what might have happened to Arthur Reblitz's method and the apparent fact that very few current tuners use it. ( edit; yes, I see Dave said pushing to tighten doesn't give him the control he wants, to paraphrase)

Neil