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Thanks Sheila (respected cousin of Aussie Bruce) ... for your thoughts ... and congratulations on the double TON ... are you also good at cricket?

But for the record ... I’m a bit of a stickler for verifiable evidence ... so often on the Forum colleagues throw out vague "facts" which turn out to be inflated second-hand myths ... the legendary Liszt classic of playing the Grieg PC to the recorded amazement of the composer takes the cake.

However, even though my second name is Thomas, evidence to substantiate the "invaluable" use of 3-stave keyboard notation will be much valued ... so far we’ve just heard about vague and distant exceptions by relatively unknown composers (we’ve sorted out Bach’s WTC).

Kind regards,
a cricket-loving pal of Bruce.

PS I'm going to bet my bottom Aussie dollar that you don't feed
3-stave notation to those in your care ... guaranteed to lose customers ( and damage the old brain-box!!.)

your post cracked me up btb! So are you really a Bruce?

Actual Pacific Examples:
Rach prelude in C# minor opus 3 no 2
Skryabin Vers La Flamme
Liszt Valse Oubliee No.1
hope I've got those right. Others could add more, but trooly rooly it's more useful than confounding. I've used 3 staves for writing as well.

No good at cricket, nor Aussie Rules, nor Beer even, but v good at eating BBQs.
And are you a Tank Engine?

None of my students have come across 3 stave notation yet, and the only time I've used three stave in a performance was a publicity stunt involving the score to Vers La Flamme (to lend credibility), 2 chainsaws, 1 leafblower (in Bflat) and 4 or 5 lawnmowers (assorted brands). And now you are thoroughly convinced of my Antipodean tendencies I will thank you for the congratulations and say seeya

Always good for a laugh ... liked the chainsaw, leaf-blower, lawn mower publicity bit with 3 staves ... but frankly, in all my born days (as my dear old Mum used to say) ... I've only come across the triple stave at the close of the Rach 3-2 ... and have necessarily rewritten the gibberish into 2 staves to become readable prima vista.

Nice to be chatting ... braaivleis (literally grilled meat in Afrikaans) is
your equivalent of BBQ ... but please
watch the fire and don't flipping well burn the meat!!

Other examples of piano music written on more than two staves for a portion - in a few cases - all of a work :

Liszt : Un Sospiro
Debussy : "Berceuse héroïque'
- "D'un cahier d'esquisses"
- "Feux d'artifice" (Preludes, Bk II)
- "Les tierces alternées" (Preludes, Bk II)
- "Canope" (Preludes, Bk II)
- "Ondine" (Preludes, Bk II)
- "La terrasse des audiences du clair de lune" (Preludes, Bk II)
- "'General Lavine' eccentric" (Preludes, Bk II)
- "Les fées sont d'esquisses danseuses" (Preludes, Bk II)
- "La puerta del Vino" (Preludes, Bk II)
- "Feuilles mortes" (Preludes, Bk II)
- "Brouillards" (Preludes, Bk II)
- "Reflets dans l'eau" (Images, Bk I)
Schumann : "Romance in F-sharp major," Op 28, No 2*
Mendelssohn-Liszt : "Auf Flugeln des Gesanges"
Schubert-Liszt : "Das Wirthshaus"
- "Ave Maria"
- "Täuschung"
- "Der Lindenbaum"
- "Liebesbotschaft"
- "Das sterbeglöcklein"
- "Die Nebensonnen"
- "Erstarrung"
- "Litanei"
- "Himmelsfunken"
Grieg : "To Spring" (Lyric pieces, Op 43, No 6)
MacDowell : "To a Water Lily" Op 51, No 6
Albeniz : "El Corpus en Sevilla" (from Iberia)
- "Almería" (from Iberia)
- "Lavapies" (from Iberia)
Granados : "Quejas o La Maja y el Ruisenor" (from Goyescas)
Rachmaninoff : "Prelude in C-sharp minor," Op 3, No 2
- "Nocturne No 3 in C minor"
Gershwin : "The Man I Love" (Gershwin's own piano transcription)

Few of these, I think, would be considered "vague and distant exceptions by relatively unknown composers."

* may vary, depending upon the editor

Regards,

Art of Fugue is written on four staves and a good argument can be made that it's intended as keyboard music. I know that the argument is not air-tight, and it's also not something that I'm qualified to debate - but it's there.

I admit I play the version transcribed to two staves, because I'm a slacker.

Hi chaps,
BruceD has kindly gone to a lot of trouble to dig out examples of 3-stave notation by
Liszt, Debussy, Schumann, Grieg, MacDowell, Albeniz, Granados, Rachmaninoff and Gershwin ... many thanks.

Thought I’d dig my teeth into Schumann’s Romance in F# major
(8 measures) to test the water ... here it is for those with super sight-reading acumen ... later I’ll work through playing the rest of Bruce’s list to see whether I can deduce any rationale to the use of 3-staves.

A lollipop for anyone who can play the Schumann 8 measures prima vista ... good luck with 6 sharps ... the razor like meshing of the two hands reminds me of my electric hedge-cutter.

PS My copy of Gershwin’s The Man I Love is on 2-staves (thank goodness) ... my party piece.

Hi btb -

I got a good laugh out of your post because in German the word "einfach" means simple, straightforward, uncomplicated. I guess Schumann had a sense of humor!

Heidi

Thanks for that Heidi,
I married a German wife ... so I know on which side my bread is buttered ... and didn’t want to make joking reference to "Einfach" ... probably all too simple for Clara Schumann.

Gather you are not wanting to qualify for the lollipop.

Then it may not be the Gershwin piano solo transcription of the piece. Since you have the ability to attach images, perhaps you would be kind enough to attach an image of the first page of the version you have of "The Man I Love."

The transcription I refer to comes from this publication :

Gershwin at the Keyboard

Regards,

We’ve had this out before BruceD ... you appear determined to prove that you have got the only authentic keyboard version of Gershwin’s "The Man I Love" ... but here is the first page from my "George Gershwin’s Greatest Hits" ... the copyright at the bottom of the page ... 1924, 1945, 1951 WP MUSIC CORP.

Up at the top of the page ... as bold as brass
Words by IRA GERSHWIN ... Music by GEORGE GERSHWIN

Good enough for me ... but I'd be more than interested in you
putting up a copy of your first page with the 3-staves.

I know we've "had this out" before, and it continues to frustrate me that you don't understand the difference between a piano/vocal sheet (a vocal line with a rudimentary piano part which also carries the vocal line) and a piano solo transcription. I'm not saying that what you have reproduced is not Gershwin; it is, but it's simply a bare-bones vocal with piano version of the Gershwin song.

I don't have a scanner, but in the interests of trying to clarify the difference I will try to photograph a copy of the piano transcription and post a link to it here. It will have to wait until tomorrow, however, for it is now late here, and I'm off to bed.

In the meantime, look at this volume, click on the links that eventually lead you to "Look Inside" and then go to "First pages," and you'll see Gershwin's piano solo transcriptions of "Clap Yo' Hands," "Do-Do-Do," and "Do It Again" which in no way resemble the piano/vocal versions that are in the same style as your copy of "The Man I Love".

Gershwin : Piano Works

As the volume I linked to has been in print for many years, and as the piano solos in this particular volume are recorded exactly as printed on a number of recordings,[1] to say that I claim to try to prove that I have "the only authentic keyboard version" is absurd in the extreme!

[1] among them : "The complete Music for Solo Piano by Gershwin," Angela Brownridge, piano, Helios CDH88045

This may save you some trouble. Not 100% sure this is the one you mean, but I think it probably is.

With respect BruceD, regarding the Gershwins,

Song by definition includes words ... to exclude the input of Ira Gershwin’s words from the music of his brother George is a contradiction in terms ... it would appear that BruceD and the like prefer a keyboard score devoid of words, so as to perhaps exploit finger dexterity.

But what insensitive rot to say of the first page of
"The Man I Love" (posted earlier):
"but it's simply a bare-bones vocal with piano version of the Gershwin song" ... some might like to ask ... when is the notation of a vocal solo anything but "bare-bones"?

Thanks wr for your posting of the keyboard version with 3-staves ... forgive me if I stay with the 2-stave version, which captures the humanist message of the two brothers Ira and George IN COLLABORATION.

wr :

Many thanks; that's the transcription I was refering to.

btb :

If it was good enough for Gershwin to transcribe - as he did of 17 other of his well-known hits - then it's certainly good enough for me to play and enjoy. In Gershwin's own words :

"Sheet music, as ordinarily printed for mass sales, is arranged with an eye to simplicity. The publishers cannot be blamed for getting out simplified versions of songs, since the majority of the purchasers of popular music are little girls with little hands, who have not progressed very far in their study of the piano. [...]
Gradually, with the general increase of technical skill at the piano, there has arisen a demand for arrangements that shall consider that skill. Playing my songs as frequenhtly as I do at private parties, I have naturally been led to compose numerous variations upon them, and to indulge the desire for complication and variety that every composer feels when he manipulates the same material over and over again. It was this habit of mine that led to the original suggestion to publish a group of songs not only in the simplified arrangements that the public knew, but also in the variations that I had devised.
Hence, in this book, the transcriptions for solo piano of each chorus, after its appearance in the regular sheet-music form."
etc., etc.

Gershwin's words should respond to the "insensitive rot" I wrote about simplified arrangements that constitute the bread and butter of popular music publishing, even to this day. btb obviously strongly believes that any solo piano transcriptions of songs - i.e. piano "arrangements" devoid of the "humanist message" of the text - are contradictions in terms. Tell that to Liszt, Rachmaninoff, Godowsky, Gershwin, Wild and others who have contributed so much to the transcription literature.

It's not a case of preference at all; since since my singing sounds little better than a frog croaking in a marsh, it's a case, rather, of being able to produce a song - albeit in a different format - in a manner that is pianistically more satisfying than the published "simplified arrangements." Moreover, since I know well the lyrics of the songs whose transcriptions I enjoy, I do not need them in front of me.

I will agree on one point: the collaboration between composer and lyricist (when the two are not one and the same) is what makes a song what it is. It isn't necessary, to me, to have the printed lyrics in front of me to for me to recall and appreciate the meaning of a song.

To continue this "discussion," however, is evidently pointless.

Regards,

Song by definition includes words ... to exclude the input of Ira Gershwin’s words from the music of his brother George is a contradiction in terms ... it would appear that BruceD and the like prefer a keyboard score devoid of words, so as to perhaps exploit finger dexterity.