Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

What's Hot!!
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Fall 2017
Who's Online Now
113 registered members (AZ_Astro, anotherscott, ando, Almaviva, Adypiano, 35 invisible), 1,440 guests, and 1 spider.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#1301693 - 11/08/09 04:22 PM Is there a difference in sound between CVP 407 and 409?  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 127
boxijie Offline
Full Member
boxijie  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 127
Vancouver
I heard from Yamaha salesman, who is very knowledgable on the CVP line that there is a difference in the speakers between the polished ebony yamahas and rosewood. He demonstrated the difference in the CLP line as he did not have a CVP 407 there next to the 409.

I could hear that the sound was quite a bit more "open" and pleasing in the polished ebony than in the Rosewood.

He said there was something to do with the frequency, but I can't remember the exact term.

The other differences between 407 and 409 are the finish and the bench. Does anyone know of any others. There is about a $1500 diference between 407 and 409 is it really worth it to go to 409?

I think the same will apply to the new 509 Rosewood v. 509 PE, so I would appreciate any comments from those in the know.

Thanks

Last edited by boxijie; 11/08/09 04:23 PM.
(ad) ROLAND

Click Here

#1301708 - 11/08/09 04:45 PM Re: Is there a difference in sound between CVP 407 and 409? [Re: boxijie]  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 211
Alden Offline
Full Member
Alden  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 211
Portland, Oregon, USA
boxijie,

I will take the position that the sales person is either confused or misinformed. There is NO difference between the CVP407 and CVP409 other than keytop material, finish and bench.

Which CLPs did he use to illustrate the difference in sound?


Alden Skinner
DP Technical Advisor, PianoBuyer Magazine
| VSL Imperial | Pianoteq Pro | Logic Pro |
#1301713 - 11/08/09 04:54 PM Re: Is there a difference in sound between CVP 407 and 409? [Re: boxijie]  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,417
Kawai James Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Kawai James  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,417
Hamamatsu, Japan
boxijie, I would recommend referring to the following pages on the Yamaha America website:

CVP407
CVP409

I opened both links and compared the specifications side-by-side.

The speaker specifications of the two models appear to be the same:

iAFC: Yes
Amplifiers: 60W x 2 + 20W x 2
Speakers:(16 cm + 5 cm + 3cm (dome)) x 2 + 1- cm x 2

Aside from the Polished Ebony finish of the CVP409, the only other difference I can see is the Synthetic Ivory key tops on the higher-end model.

Of course, there could be an error on the Yamaha America website, however you may wish to print out these specifications page and show them to the dealer, just to clarify the differences.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#1301744 - 11/08/09 06:39 PM Re: Is there a difference in sound between CVP 407 and 409? [Re: Kawai James]  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,604
Marty Flinn Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Marty Flinn  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,604
407 and 409 have the same samples and the same sound system.


Co-Author of The Complete Idiot's Guide To Buying A Piano. A "must read" before you shop.
Work for west coast dealer for Yamaha, Schimmel, Bosendorfer, Wm. Knabe.
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1301746 - 11/08/09 06:58 PM Re: Is there a difference in sound between CVP 407 and 409? [Re: Marty Flinn]  
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 962
emenelton Offline
500 Post Club Member
emenelton  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 962
It's realistic to believe that different types of wood and/or finishes that the cabinet is constructed out of would have a different sound.

Last edited by emenelton; 11/08/09 06:59 PM.
#1302275 - 11/09/09 05:31 PM Re: Is there a difference in sound between CVP 407 and 409? [Re: emenelton]  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,789
bitWrangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member
bitWrangler  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,789
Central TX
Hmm, it's hard to imagine that the veneer used would have that profound of an effect on the sound (though I guess it's possible). When he used the CLP's, did he use the exact same models? Also, with iAFC, it's possible to do a fair amount of tweaking to the sound, so you'll want to make sure the dealer at the very least resets the pianos to factory defaults and/or calibrates the units so you know that you're comparing apples to apples. Also note that the position of the units in the store can have an effect on the sound, so try to get them as close together as possible.

#1306629 - 11/16/09 01:49 PM Re: Is there a difference in sound between CVP 407 and 409? [Re: Marty Flinn]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 127
boxijie Offline
Full Member
boxijie  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 127
Vancouver
My salesperson confirmed that the speakers in the ebony polish finish units are "flat frequency response" whereas in the rosewood for the same unit (e.g. CVP 409PE vs 407)are "mid bias speakers". This and the bench and the finish cause the price difference between the CVP 409 and 407. Apparently flat frequency response speakers are about double the price of mid bias speakers. He did mention that in the newer models, this difference is not as apparent as it was in older models.

As I mentioned he did demonstrate the difference on CLP models and there was a difference.

Obviously with headphones there would be no difference.

Anyone in the know can confirm the use of the different speakers?

#1306673 - 11/16/09 02:51 PM Re: Is there a difference in sound between CVP 407 and 409? [Re: boxijie]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Emmery  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Niagara Region, On. Canada
Frequency response measurement is not a very perfect science and there is a lot of smoke and mirrors and marketing specmanship involved. Different labs will often get different results from measurements. Even a flat response speaker that falls in the +/-3 dB range can have a more spikey distribution relative to another speaker within the same boundaries.

With all the harmonics and overtones associated to piano sounds it can make a big difference in the quality of what you hear. I am not discrediting the salesman but rest assured the location, temperature and types of acoustically reflective/absorptive surfaces near the piano can greatly effect what your hearing also. I am assuming that the recordings are the same.

Having a flat frequency response speaker upgrade would most certainly warrant mention of it in the specs, which I do not see. With all the other hype and specs present and this one missing, I would look at this somewhat dubiously and investigate further.


Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
#1306737 - 11/16/09 04:28 PM Re: Is there a difference in sound between CVP 407 and 409? [Re: boxijie]  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 211
Alden Offline
Full Member
Alden  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 211
Portland, Oregon, USA
boxije

The salesman's line about flat vs biased speakers is simply not true. This is not my opinion, this is a fact. The Yamaha service manual that covers both the CVP407 and 409 (because they're the same)lists the same part numbers for speakers for both models. The only parts that are different between the two models are cabinet parts. The ONLY difference between these two is the finish, bench and keytops.

Please let me know which CLP models he used to "demonstrate" the difference and I'll be happy to look those up as well.



Alden Skinner
DP Technical Advisor, PianoBuyer Magazine
| VSL Imperial | Pianoteq Pro | Logic Pro |
#1307157 - 11/17/09 11:32 AM Re: Is there a difference in sound between CVP 407 and 409? [Re: boxijie]  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,789
bitWrangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member
bitWrangler  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,789
Central TX
Originally Posted by boxijie

As I mentioned he did demonstrate the difference on CLP models and there was a difference.


All he showed you was that there was a difference between the two CLP models. It would help if you could tell us what the actual models were because if he used two different models, then there is effectively no comparison to be made as everything is also different. Did he use the same model just different finishes? Even with that, the CLP cases are so radically different than the CVP I don't see how you can extrapolate anything even if there were equiv. speaker differences.

Given that, IMHO I think you're splitting hairs. Even if there is a difference, it's hard to imagine it making so much of a difference as to justify the cost, so you either buy into the PE cabinet and bench (and synth ivory) or it's not worth your while.


Moderated by  Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
Pearl River & Ritmuller
Pearl River Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


New Topics - Multiple Forums
Upright agraffes...
by Adypiano. 12/14/17 04:54 AM
Kawai MP11/MP7 v1.15 software update - now available
by Kawai James. 12/14/17 01:29 AM
Recommendations on recording gear?
by Muhwu. 12/14/17 01:07 AM
slow play
by hendo. 12/14/17 01:00 AM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics183,268
Posts2,679,148
Members89,267
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0