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Does anyone have information on Baldwin? I've heard various things about the company going out of business and being picked up by Gibson Guitar and that they recently moved their piano plant to China. One store has some but another store says they can't get any pianos out of the new plant yet. Baldwin also seems to be missing from Larry Fine's piano buyer guide's rating table? Bottom line, I'm trying to figure out how these new Chinese made Baldwins compare to Kawai, Essex, Brodmann etc.?

I recently questioned Larry about this subject. His answer was that he was not sure what Baldwin would be doing with their models at the time that the rating for the latest Piano Buyer were finalized.

Rather than create confusion or worse, mislead consumers on the quality of product put out by Baldwin, he elected to leave them off of his comparisons.

If you can find any artist series Baldwin pianos that are still in dealer inventory, they might be a really good buy. Note that the last pianos that came out of the American plant needed lots of remedial prep. before they could perform to their potential.

Good luck - I hope that helps a bit,

The reports you have heard about Baldwin are basically true, albeit old news. Baldwin filed bankruptcy in May 2001 and the remaining assets (including factories, equipment and inventory) were purchased by Gibson in November 2001. Since then, consolidation of all US piano manufacturing was limited to the Baldwin factory in Trumann, AR, which ceased production last December. Gibson had also purchased the Dongbei Piano factory in China a couple years ago, so now have been building Baldwin pianos for the world market in China. Rich is correct that there are still a good supply of US-built Artist series Baldwin grands at dealers around the country, but all of the new shipments of vertical and grand pianos are coming from Baldwin China. The way you can differentiate a Chinese-built Baldwin from a US-built piano is the small case "c" above the "i" (in place of the dot that the original Baldwin logo is missing) on the fallboard decal.

As for Larry Fine skipping an evaluation of Baldwin for the current supplement of Piano Buyer, one can refer to the previous editions and reference his review of Hamilton pianos made in the Dongbei factory, or even Nordiska, Story & Clark, Hallet & Davis and other stencil brands that were built in that factory. There were reports of backorders this year of new Baldwin shipments, but that situation should be resolved by now.

The "artist" grands the previous posters have mentioned are models "M" ,"R" and "L". The larger concert grands are the SF 10 and the SD 10. These are all considered to be very good pianos, and I think the used ones are underpriced in the market right now, and you can probably also find some good deals on used ones.

The current online version of pianobuyer.com says that a "small crew" at the Arkansas plant is still available to custom build the Artist grands as needed. It also says that the (Baldwin) grands currently made at the Dongbei Factory are similar to the pianos they make for other manufacturers... "It is not yet known if Baldwin will re-create its Artist grands in China."

Personally, I think Gibson's actions with this company were incredibly reckless and criminal; it would have been best if they let Baldwin die with whatever dignity it had left in 2000 instead of parading that name around on offensive looking Hummer-themed art cases. In addition, putting the "c" over the "i" is about the sleaziest, most dishonest thing they could have done. I hope it lands them in court.

That said, I played an SF-10 over the summer that was "new", and it was still a world-class piano. Comforting, yes, but I don't know how many hours of prep work went into it... the price was discounted to the mid-30s.

Could you elaborate about why you feel that way? I don't understand what's considered deceptive about modifying the Baldwin logo to distinguish the Chinese-made pianos, or how it could be problematic legally.

Steven

In theory, you are absolutely right. However, customers are not always able to differentiate product lines. For example, I always hear about how some people are convinced that Bostons are made by Steinway even though Steinway named those products Boston to differentiate them. What Baldwin is doing is a very lame attempt (if you can call it that) to differentiate the old from the new... it's deceptive. I hope this clarifies things.

Zilrac1,
You have received good info from Rich and Piano Pedler. They are correct. The new Chinese Baldwins are good and they also have another factory in China making the famous Baldwin Hamilton vertical piano designs. These pianos are shipping to the US but the recent orders have gotten ahead of the supply. Baldwin says that all dealer orders will be filled by Jan or Feb.

So while many piano companies are not selling much, Hailun and Baldwin are selling a lot of pianos. Gipson has made a lot of mistakes selling Baldwin pianos over the last few years, but they are correcting the mistakes. Our store has recently made orders for Baldwin pianos and we are told to expect them in Jan or Feb. So of course my comments are from that perspective.

I didn't know about the little 'c' until reading this thread. Then I checked their web site to see it. Since I had thought they were using the original logo on the Chinese pianos, it's a pleasant surprise to discover that they've kept the brand intact for those who care about where the piano is made.

I think this is similar to what C. Bechtein did by removing the 'C.' from the academy line of pianos.

Interesting is that the 'Baldwin' logo on the top left of the web pages is missing the dot on the 'i' altogether! I guess they wanted to keep it neutral between the American and Chinese pianos.

I felt the Hamiltons made in the US in the '70s and '80s weren't all that great. I look forward to seeing what comes out of the Chinese factories. Likely it is as good or better, who knows.

It's surprising to me that the MSRP for the Chinese-built 247 is 7,185. Seems high for a Chinese piano, no?

Over rated

Well, not really.

I just don't agree that it's either lame or deceptive, and still don't understand the basis for potential legal action.

Steven

Yeah, I share sotto voce's bewilderment on this one. I think that Baldwin putting the "c" over the "i" is one of the few things they've done to bring some clarity to what has been an unfortunate muddle of confusing branding strategies.

The Chinese Hamilton grands before this latest shift of production were typical of a mediocre batch of Chinese pianos. But an early report on the recent Chinese Baldwin uprights that are based on the old U.S. designs, (like the 243) are that they are at least as good as the ones made in the U.S. for many years.

Like other manufacturers, if Baldwin is going to be competitive with Chinese made pianos, they'd better be at least as good as the new Hailuns and Brodmann's. Some of the older Chinese Hamilton grands were essentially the same pianos as Nordiska, and they were OK, but not exceptional.

I wanted to add that I do think it was borderline shady how Baldwin used the Hamilton name on so many mediocre pianos. If you looked at the website descriptions at the time, it was pretty clear that these pianos had no physical lineage connection with the older "Baldwin Hamiltons", but I think there's little doubt the bean counters were hoping that Hamilton name would have some cache with folks who associated that word with good quality. And of course some unscrupulous dealers exploited the ambiguity.

This is one of the reasons I respect brands like Hailun, who are confident enough that they don't need need to tap into some American or European name to evoke images of high quality.

Thanks for everyone's feedback. So, do you think the Chinese Baldwins are closer in quality to the entry level brands like Pearl River and Young Chang vs. a middle range like Essex or Cable-Nelson? I wish I could see the Hailun since I seem to read a lot of positive about them but haven't found one in Houston yet.

No, I didn't mean to say that. What I heard from an honest dealer very familiar with Baldwin, is that his store tech said the Chinese made upright that was what used to be called the "Baldwin Hamilton" model 243, was as well made, and better prepped from the factory than the ones they had been getting from Arkansas. It's basically a direct copy of the 243, using the same design and materials, just manufactured in a Chinese factory. I have not heard any reports about the latest batch of Baldwin grands to come from China, so I wouldn't assume anything about their quality until somebody checks them out and gives a report.

When it comes to Baldwin consumer-grade grands made in Donghei (BH series), those instruments will likely satisfy mostly casual pianists. Plus they are more affordable. More discerning pianists with higher expectations will usually look to the Baldwin Artist Grands. As long as that series continues to be made to order by the "small crew at the Truman plant", then I would bet that they will continue to be high-quality performance pianos as in the past. Sadly, Gibson hasn't made any commitment on that. If manufacture of those pianos should move to China as well, then, the jury would be out until there is enough known to render a clear verdict on quality.

If Gibson supposedly managed Baldwin well over the past nine years, I should hate to see how mismanagement would have affected the company!

Pianos from this factory (the ones I've seen) aren't half bad. I've played a few grands right out of the box and they were in tune and playable. Action had a lot of friction, though.



Seriously, you're so right! *Shudders at the thought*

Yeah... maybe for us. But think of the people who don't spend hours a week on this forum.

What are the consumer's responsibilities to be informed concerning a decision that involves many thousands of dollars? I doubt that anyone buying a car is unaware whether the brand is domestic or foreign (even if its component parts come from around the world).

Consider how many Asian piano makers have adopted venerable names from the "golden era" or have fabricated European names solely for the cachet that they confer. In other areas of manufacturing and marketing, too, names (like "Packard Bell," for instance) get bought and sold. It seems like there's a lot of potential for deception there, and yet a Baldwin is still a Baldwin whether made in Cincinnati, Trumann or Dongbei.

I think Baldwin's decision to incorporate the letter C into the logo of the Chinese pianos is clever, and it serves the purpose of differentiation well. Opinions about that detail may vary, but I'm genuinely at a loss to understand such an extreme description as "the sleaziest, most dishonest thing they could have done. I hope it lands them in court."

I still want to know how this action—which seems intended specifically to eliminate confusion and even the appearance of deception—suggests vulnerability to legal claims.

Steven

I think you're probably right; I guess sometimes I forget not all piano buyers are as obsessive as I am. I'm especially obsessive about Baldwin, and even I get confused by their branding strategies, and surprised at their inept marketing over the years.