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Yeah right Jazz+, as you said it also changed meters.

btw for more information on rhythmic=superimpostion stuff, check out Bergonzi's Melodic Rhythms, What I was talking about earlier is somewhat based on that.

jazzwee,

On the solo part he actually change meter.. You'll see it very clearly when you see the transcription.



So Jazz+ is correct as far as the solo part is concerned.. but when the rhythm section comes in, its in 7 all the way. And you can clearly hear 1234-123 from the rhythm section.

On the recording I have of ATTYA, (Art Of The Trio, Volume 4) Mehldau plays 7 mostly in his solo piano intro but there are sections where he goes off the strict 7 that can measured as meter changes... when the bass and drums enter is 7/4 thereafter.

Okay here's the transcription, take a look(you'll have to register to d/l the file).

http://www.pianofiles.com/search/music/sheets/brad+mehldau+-+all+the+things+you+are%28typhmedia%29

I don't see how you are able to feel 2/4 the entire way through this. That just doesn't make any sense.

OK. Granted the tune is in 7. I already agree to that as I counted what I heard at the beginning (Part 1).

Now help me out here because I can clearly hear AND see the bass player dishing out those quarter notes at 4 beats per chord.

Part 2: Go to 4:08. Watch Rossi's fingers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsW6K51lQkQ&feature=related

Am I blind (and deaf)? Or is he (a member of the Rhythm section) playing against the meter? You can clearly hear his changes.

Your ears are playing tricks on you, it happens to me too. The timing is flying by quickly.

The bass and drums play 7 (4 beats for a chord, then 3 beats for the next chord, then again 4 beats for the next chord, then 3 beats for the next chord, etc.)

Because you're looking at the beats in 7 and I look at it at 14. Didn't you read what I hear in my head? And his patterns are divisible by two.

Anyway, this can only go so far because obviously you cannot hear the pattern superimposition I'm hearing. So let's just let it go.

My final comment on the 2/4 question:

My original post that started all this was that I can hear a pattern in my head that I can repeat, and I hear it in all of his playing. That premise hasn't changed regardless of the debate. One of these days my technical ability will allow me to execute what I hear.

Yea, Jazz+ is right

when you hear walking bass line in 7, it's easy to get lost and feel like it's in 4, because we are used to hearing walking bass line in 4. But if you listen carefully (or listen to it at a slower tempo using amazing slow downer) you'll find that its 4 beats per chord than 3 beats per chord.

Rossi's fingers on the bass? It's my friend Larry Grenadier on bass amd Jeff Ballard on drums. Your eyes are playing tricks on you now.

OK. I'll accept that, although in 4/4 those chords in ATTYA take a full bar for each chord so I would have understood that to mean that in 7/4 each chord uses up all 7 beats. This is new to me that a chord would be split like that in an odd meter.

jazzwee,

I strongly urge you to take a look at the transcription.. the solo part is not in fixed meter!!!

I will write down the actual meter changes for the first 12 bars of Brad's solo piano intro for you

7/8|7/8|7/8|4/4
7/8|7/8|4/4|7/8
4/4|5/8|7/8|7/8

I hope you get my point now. So how you are feeling 2/4 over all that is beyond my understanding.

Haha. Touche. I meant Larry. Rossi's back in Spain somewhere I presume.

|111_111
_111_11 |

|_111_11
_111_11 |

|111111_
111111 _|


Jazzwee,


Those look like just various groupings within 7, not sure what what's so unique about it. Don't need to think 2 for that, 2 will only make it less subdivided and thus more difficult.

4 beats then 3 beats ... I doubt he's thinking a wide 14

The bassist and drummer are thinking 7 and Brad too, though he does his various poly-rhythmic tricks over the top of it all.

I find listening to 7 not particularly enjoyable, it's tedious and sounds off kilter to me. I see it as one of those things where the players that are into it enjoy it more than the listeners. Jazzwee mentioned his teacher doesn't dig it much either. I much prefer Keith Jarret's uptempo 4/4 trio version of All The Things You Are. I have a very accurate transcription of that one too.

I edited the post as it didn't come out right initally

This is playing 3/4 over 7/4
(X represent accent)

X23X56X|12X45X7|1X34X67|


This is playing 5/4 over 7/4
X2345X7|123X567|1X3456X|1234567


So you can use rhythmic pattern in any meter and play it over any meter, as long as you know where you are. For example you can play the same rhythmic pattern as the one you hear on B section of "Take 5", and if you do it once you will be on 6th beat, if you do it twice you will be on the 4th beat of the next measure.. and so on.

Jazz+

I personally like 7, I like the groove, it's hard to describe. But I do agree that the way Brad's playing all these polyrhythm over it.. sometimes it's too much for me too.

Before this went off into a meter discussion, I was only interested in Brad's phrasing and was intending to apply it to 4/4 as syncopations

But that's ok. It was rather educational as well thanks to you two. I don't think I'm planning on playing with switching meters randomly.

Brad appears to switch meters in his intro, probably subconsiously too.

etc., I have to sign off now but in your meter discussions, where's the swing?

When playing 3/4, the masters overlay a 4/4 over it to make it swing. So the notes sounded are in BETWEEN. That same "in between" can be found in the first 3 beats in a 5/4.

This was why I was interested in Brad. Not because of the meter. That's where the phrasing was that I was paying attention to and recognizing the pattern.

My premise is that Brad swings because he subdivides more finely. I hope that doesn't start another debate.

I wouldn't be surprised if he had something worked out... or maybe he did initially and he's able to switch things up between different variation...

like at the end of first phrase maybe he figured out an ending in 2/4 or 5/4, and he has the option to use either one of them at will (hypothetically)