Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum The same lesson, all over again

I don't mind that. Why not call the time at home at the piano "lessons"?

I spoke to a student who averages about 4 days of piano practice each week. She is a high school student who took lessons with my as a child up to 6th grade and reached late elementary. She stopped (didn't practice much as a child, I might add) and now is back. She regrets not sticking with it, but I do not see a change in behavior to back that up.

So I gave her some things to do by ear (Happy Birthday and to figure out the harmony) and discussed the fact that in dance, she only practices when she's at dance class. If she does a sport, she only practices on the field. However, she goes to those things 5-6 times a week. I only see her once, and so I have to rely upon her to do the work on her own.

I told her some tips on efficient practice: that when she remembers to practice and doesn't feel like it, just to sit down and work on that one tough measure in that one piece. If she accomplishes just that in her session, then it is successful because she will be better at that difficult area, and maybe even have it solved for good. If after doing that she feels better about playing, then she should continue.

This is a student who is very sweet and fun to be with. She's got a good ear and does surprisingly well when she wants to. I would not call her lazy, I just don't think she knows what self-discipline is. So that's what I'm trying to teach her.

We'll see how it goes, but I agree with Betty that we must always try something. With that one sight-impaired boy I was teaching I had almost given up on him, but we finally had a successful lesson. I think I reached him, and that made it all worthwhile. Keep trying until you run out. And then try a little more.

I always tell the parents, when first starting out, that piano is unlike math or theory. It's not only understanding, comprehending and grasping knowledge, but also about DAILY practice and I make absolutely sure that I stress the importance of DAILY practice! Thus far there's been no misunderstanding, and since I have the quality of time in my hands (I'm primarily a composer, and not a teacher, so I don't have a studio, just a few students) and I dedicate a lot of time in each student, by preparing stuff in Finale, working a bit longer with a student, etc... This ensures to the parents that I'm doing my absolutely best and that if there IS indeed something wrong, then it's not my fault!

I was taught in teacher training college to use a pencil when marking. It gives the student a greater sense of ownership of their work (they can erase it once they've overcome the problem).

Oh yes, only pencil here as well! Something that can be errased afterwards! Red markings create the opposite problem for me (and my students): They mark the territory which they tremble the most, thus ending in some kind of phychological knot right there at that point! You know the idea of "THIS is the place where you ALWAYS go wrong!", "Don't mess it up AGAIN" and so on...

This is a problem I can identify with. There are some note combinations that I just can't play reliably, and I've never known why. It's certainly not lack of practice, and I doubt it is with your student either -- if you can play a piece competently all except one measure, you've probably done your homework. But I've spend hours and hours and hours practising a change from one chord shape to another and still not been able to get it right more than half the time. I assume it's some sort of defect

I would stop teaching that song to your student and learn something else. Their mind needs a break from it. Classical training where you play 2-4 songs only at a time quickly leads to boredom and repetitiveness. If they are making mistakes in that song, figure out the technical part and pinpoint what is going on.

If you want a passage of notes slurred, work on that exclusively. Show them rubato and proper fingering. But play SOMETHING ELSE. Take some simple melodies and work on the sound.

Same with if you want fast runs with staccato. Isolate the technique first.

I would play scales in triplets, to emphasize slurring. Or break them up, so a C major would be:

C D E, D E F, E F G, F G A .... Accent the first note. You can use both legato or staccato.

I agree with piano*dad that such sentiments are likely to be irritating and insulting to a teacher who is trying very hard to reach a student and feeling frustrated when the student does not fulfill his/her end of the bargain by practicing.

In fact, when I read the O.P.'s post, my initial reaction was, "Isn't this situation highly similar to Betty's thread the day before about a student who was resistant to piano and practicing and not making much progress?" I guess I don't understand why Betty feels it's CarolR's fault when her student doesn't practice, but doesn't take the same responsibility when her own student doesn't make progress.

My own view, for what it's worth, is that I disagree very strongly with Betty's statement in a later post that students are "empty vessels" to be filled with knowledge by some teacher, as such a statement overstates greatly the passivity of the student and overestimates greatly the role and responsibility of the teacher. As my colleague in cognitive development likes to say, children are "learning machines," and there is a tremendous amount of pedagogical, educational psychology, and cognitive developmental research to show that children and adults are active participants in, and bring a host of motivational, intellectual, and developmental resources to, any teaching situation.

Many times these factors are aligned with the teacher's goals, and a successful teaching relationship occurs. But sometimes students simply are not motivated or willing to engage in the necessary work, and learning does not occur--despite the excellence and best efforts of the teacher.

I have students in my classes who are there (even at the age of 20) only because their parents insist that they attend college. They don't want to study, and so they don't. Often they don't even attend class. As a result they don't learn the material. That is their choice, but it is not my fault--just as it is not CarolR's fault if her student won't practice, nor is it Betty's fault that her 6-year old student is not ready for piano.

Betty,
I posted that comment on a particularly frustrating day. I think we all feel a little unhappy at times with the progress of some of our students. I am not sure why you made so many assumptions about me as a teacher, that were really quite insulting. So many of the comments I got back from others were so understanding and helpful. I have to say it was quite off-putting to be told to look up the word pedagogy, and to say the fault must be completely with me, not the student. Or, that I am not realizing that each student is an individual and has different learning styles (I have been an educator for 30 years, this is not a new concept), and am mindlessly plodding through the same method book. These accusations are really too ludicrous to bother defending. I care deeply about teaching piano, and about my relationship with each student. I keep on top of pedagogical trends, and use a vast array of materials to try to reach each child. I know that you have a lot of experience and a lot of very valuable things to share, but If you want to truly be helpful on this forum, I suggest you try a different approach.

Carol

Amen!

I picked up a lot of good points from Betty. It's true, many inexperienced teachers put the blame on others to defend their shortcomings. No finger pointed at a specific person. Take it constructively rather than destructive.

Carol,

I realize I was terse with you. Let me tell you how that happened.

I noticed you have been a member since 2005 and that you have posted 36 times. I decided to look at your profile and posting history. I went to your first posts 1,2, and to your last posts 34,35,36 to get an idea of your interests and concerns.

What I found was frustration on your part and stress in teaching and you blame it on your students lacks of this and that. Yes, we do cope with these problems daily in our piano teaching and the onus is on the teacher to effectively teach and reach that child. The child is behaving as he knows how to behave he does not yet have the instincts or training of how to behave and think like a musician. He is lacking because he doesn't know any better and he doesn't have his habits to succeed in music in place yet. "Yet" is the key word.

There are many approaches to teaching, many, many, many. When something is not working, we need to make even a small change to try saying something different. And, again, and again if the student is getting it. Over and over looking for new solutions for this child - each and every "problem" he has must be resourced to find a solution. That is the teacher's job.

In your postings I had time to find and read the topics:
1. Studio Makeover (Feb 21, 2009)
2. I think I just dropped (March 5,2009)
34. The same lesson all over again (Nov 5, 2009)
35. Anxious child (Oct 19, 2009)
36. Does teaching make you anxious (Oct 13, 2009)

I have no idea how long you have taught nor of your education - but I did see frustration, blaming, stress, considering dumping students, and your concern for the start of this new year of teaching.

I felt it important to say to you that you need to examine yourself as a teacher to work to eliminate those problem areas in your students based on how you work with them, improving the communication between you and your students during lesson - they need to think and listen and do - if they can do these things effectively in piano lesson, then they should be able to go home and work on their assignments with interest and even enjoyment. This is not happening because they are not having successful lessons - partly their fault I'm sure - but partly your fault too. What you have said in your postings tell me that you need to evaluate what happens in your studio and turn it around.

You should not be so frustrated - it's sad to see - music is this joyful activity that we are drawn to - and you are not enjoying your teaching in the way that you are doing it.

My words to you were based on wanting to get a strong message across to get your attention directed to examining yourself and your methods. I think it's pretty exciting when we are able to make a difference in our studios so that we have the desire to create a wonderful learning environment.

I know that you can turn this all around - but there has to be an attitude change and a method change on your part so that you can thrive on teaching instead of getting exhaused from it.

These changes are in our domain to do because we operate our own one on one piano instruction service and it is a business as well as a musical learning environment. You must come up with the answers to what you express about your studio. It is good to have empathy and ideas and support in the piano world forum, but it's within yourself that the answers will appear.

I have hit the wall so many times in my teaching, I'm sure I can equal your frustrations, but the stopping of those frustrations are yours to make. Students keep arriving every year and each one is being groomed by you to become a musician - so do it - despite the odds of what they bring to you as being the empty musical vessel (symbolically) that you are to fill. Stimulating them, motivating them, inspiring them, instructing them, understanding them is our job. We teach the person and prepare them for the work just as much as we teach the music and the music making.

I am truly sorry that you were insulted - I knew it was a risk to expound on this subject - but now you have the explanation that it was not this one post that drew my attention. I have received my share of criticism from others in my lifetime, and some was very valid and helpful, some of it not at all helpful.

How you and others see my postings here will be based on individual perceptions of what I am saying and why I am saying it and what experiences they bring to the subject. Teachers who have studied pedagogy are in a different place than teachers who have not. It is an exciting subject I think and all encompassing.

I believe our answers are in pedagogy study, and I'm very concerned about the lack of teacher's not knowing that it exists, what it is and how to use it. If we want our student's to be musically literate, we should make sure we are there in our teaching. The piano methods by themselves do not work that well, we must be our best informed and work with our students from within our own knowledge and efforts. It's the only way to acquire a strong teaching base and to have our own inate piano teaching skills to serve every demand made of us by these kids having problems.

Betty Patnude

Wow, if CarolR has vented her frustrations here at PW just 5 times in 4 years, I think she is doing great

These forums offer us a safe place to vent and seek/share solutions. Do you think most posts here are the opposite: "wow teaching is wonderful, no problems here, I just love it every day". No.

Betty, to assume that the only things she talks about on this forum are the only things that occur in her lessons is very naive, and overly judgmental. Perhaps she only posts here about the students with whom she is looking for advice on how to deal with, having exhausted all other options. One can get a very skewed image of teachers in general from reading a lot of posts on this site if they are not a teacher themselves, because there are lots of complaints and issues raised in many areas. One might think, in fact, that teachers in general hate their jobs because of all the problems.

We, of course, know that this is not true for the majority of those who post here. I just wonder why you assume the worst of Carol rather than the best. Rather than saying "look up the word pedagogy" you could offer some questions that will help her figure out if she has tried everything in the book, like, "have you tried choosing a piece for him that might be a bit easier but one you know he'll love and practice every day?" or something.

It wasn't so much the content of what you said, but the lack of respect with which you said it.

I do not think Carol was not looking for a solution. If that were the case, she wouldn't have bothered to post on here, I suspect. In fact, I'd argue that the reason for her posting in here is so that *she* could learn something that would help *her* reach this kid. Yes, *he's* not practicing, but *she* was looking for a solution.

We all have students where we aren't sure what to do, and frustration sets in. I feel that this place is a sanctuary for where renewal can happen for a teacher who may have tried everything they know and are at a loss. I think we all have been there, you recently with your post on that young child whose parents pulled from your studio.

I think it is important to be encouraging to one another, and not judgmental. The line between the two can sometimes be blurred.

FIRST RULE OF HOLES

When in a deep one, stop digging.

You know what Betty? It's my birthday and I have no time for you today, at all. I'm not even going to finish reading your message, it is so annoying. I'm definitely not responding to whatever point you were trying to make.

I'm sorry you have so much time on your hands that you decided to dig into all my postings. I find that really quite sad. I've just spent my birthday morning planting bulbs in the garden, and I am not going to have my mood ruined by someone is so defensive they need to go through and point out everything I have ever posted on this forum to make a point.

But thank you anyway.

Carol

Happy birthday Carol. Working in the garden is a good way to enjoy a fine morning!

Happy birthday, Carol! We like having birthdays around here - any excuse for a party

You know, if you go to your profile and put in your birthday (you don't have to put in a year, I don't think) you'll get a cake showing up next to your name on all your posts all day the day of your birthday - kind of a little celebration here at PW -

Cathy

Where's your birthday cake? You must not have your birth date on your profile.

So here you go:

Here's a Birthday Smile for you, Carol!

May we all have 'dolls' for students!!!!

AWWWWW, Thanks, guys! I'll have to change my profile! I feel like I've made a lot of new friends in the last couple of days! I really appreciate all the supportive comments that I've gotten.

I appreciate that you all (most of you) see my posting for what it was - a bad day. If we can't vent here, where can we? I adore teaching and I have wonderful students. Monday is my longest and toughest day (but not usually all that tough) but it gets better from there. By the time Thursday roles around, I'm sorry that my teaching week has ended.

But it IS good to sometimes just be able to say rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, so thanks for listening.

Carol