Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum I messed up the strings by cleaning. Any solution?

Hi all,

Ok, I'm stupid. I know. I shouldn't have done it, but I did. And I failed. Please help me.

I have an old grand from the 50's - 70's (don't know) and wanted to clean the bass strings. I did it with some sponge thing and some anti-dust solution spray.

Now the bass strings sound very dull.

What is the reason? And how can I possibly restore the sound?

Any feedback really appreciated.

Thanks
Kars

Liquids kill bass strings. It breaks the bond between the core and the winding. The only permanent solution is to replace them.

Thanks. Any other suggestions?

If replacing them, do you have any indication about the costs?

Kars

BDB is right, sorry to say. There is a way to clean and polish wound strings that is relatively quick and will leave them looking and usually sounding much better but not if they have been ruined by a liquid first. Now, there is nothing you can do which will restore their sound. Replacement will cost at least several hundred dollars and there will be a painfully long period of instability to follow.

Since the damage has been done, I would suggest you find a technician who can do this work along with other reconditioning or rebuilding it may need. It might well need a new set of hammers and dampers, for example. You'll be happy with it if you get it all fixed up and sounding like new again. While you could go ahead and have the entire piano restrung, plain wire can be polished for appearance sake too. I know BDB advocates new strings all around and this wouldn't be a bad idea but there are other considerations such as how well the pinblock would take repinning. It isn't that old of a piano, so take the advice of an experienced technician as to what really needs to be done and what does not.

You may want to get a few different opinions. There are excellent rebuilders who only want to do "all or nothing at all" and others who are willing to only do what will bring the piano back to a nice and satisfactory state. It all depends on where you live and who works in the area. Be sure to ask about the kind of work the technician has done in the past and what that technician's usual line of work is. Good luck.

Other suggestions: Do not do this again. Leave it to the professionals. If this piano is as old as you say, it might be time to restring it entirely anyway.

Perhaps $1000 just for the bass strings, $2500 for the full restringing.

Hi Kars,

I noticed that you stated that you used "anti-dust solution spray". Does the spray contain silicone?

Whatever you are going to do, you should probably do it sooner rather than later. My concern is contamination of the bass bridge (or bass bridge cap) and the possibility of this liquid migrating to the pinblock.

I was wondering if BDB or anyone can elaborate on what type of bond is broken by the liquid. It is really only the tension of the winding and possibly a chemical bond layer formed from dissimilar metals reacting with each other that "bonds" the windings. Is it possible to salvage this by using a cleaner that leaves no residue, putting rags underneath and blowing out the windings with pressurized air?

Hi,

No I don't think so. I thought there might be fat on the strings, so I used some spray that you use in the kitchen to clean the things there (I know, its stupid...)

Did you apply to the strings with a brush or cloth, or spray it on the strings? This is important so that we will know if this is a 'local' issue (just the strings), or if there are other things which may have gotten contaminated.

What's done is done... No sense beating yourself up.

Also, what kind of piano is it?
Steinway, Kimball, etc?
Also, how big?

Thanks!
-joe

Hi Joe,

Appreciate your help.

It's an unknown brand from Romenia: Doina. Size: 230 cm

I sprayed the stuff on a sponge (a sponge with one such rough side, dont know how its called in english. You use it to brush strong dirt off). I certainly did not spray it on the strings directly, so no other parts should have been contaminated, IMO.

Regards,
Kars

"3-M" pad is the rough side of the sponge.

You're quite right about airborne oils (like from cooking or air pollution) being bad for the strings--- and the action. I'm sorry that this solution gone the wrong way for you. It's easy to see your heart is in the right place and that you tried to do a good thing. Preventing the problem is the only way, and a lot of people with pianos don't know this.

Your piano tech will be able to give you the best advice after seeing the problem in person.

I too would like to know what really happens when bass strings go dead. My Walter piano (built in 1996) after about 10-11 years developed dead bass strings for no apparent reason. It started with the lower ones and seemed to spread like a disease until nearly all of them were tubby. I never sprayed anything or did any stupid thing to them. Here, I sound like a typical piano owner rather than technician, I know. I didn't even try any remedies, I just restrung it. What a job to have to do for free! It sounds great now, though but the number of times I had to retune the bass was about a dozen and at first, they didn't hold but for a few days. Imagine having to pay for all of that!

This is a common problem with restaurant pianos. I have an old CD by Dick Hymen, a great Jazz pianist playing at Chung's Chinese restaurant. Imagine the daily plume of kitchen grease that would contaminate the wound strings! The music is great but the bass strings of the piano are quite tubby. While I can imagine a solution for this, "washing" the strings with acetone and twisting them, I wouldn't even offer to try it. Once dead, bass strings cannot be revived.

One warning to all who may be trying to clean a piano: Murphy's Oil Soap kills bass strings dead!

Hi Kars,

I'm sorry... I do not know this piano. But at that size, it certainly seems like it could justify the expense of major work. Perhaps someone here is familiar with Doina pianos and could advise you as to their value and quality.

It does sound as though you are going to want to at least restring the bass, as was suggested. On the plus side, you could have a better piano than what you had before spraying the strings.

I agree that this is something that needs to be viewed in person by a tuner/technician to determine the damage and any other (unrelated) problems that may not be obvious.

I'm sorry I cannot be of more help.

-Joe

I would imagine that liquids on bass strings acts like oil would on a bolt and nut, getting between where metal meets metal and reducing the friction bond between them.

BDB's pricing is about right, around 1K for a new set of strings...plus tunings...usually several rough and a couple fine...FWIW...

Also, another FWIW. I personally hate replacing a set of bass strings alone...its NEVER all that is wrong with the piano...years ago, another technician in the area tried to put a new set of bass strings onto the old pins by "winding" the coils and slipping them down onto the old pin. Total disaster! (agraffes don't easily permit this, he learned) The coils were "untidy", to say the least!!!! My customer wondered why it looked so bad...and wouldn't stay in tune. The strings were new enough that I was able to pry off the badly wound coils, carefully straighten the strings, and wind them on NEW tuning pins, and punch them in again (do it yourselfers, don't do this without bracing the block/plate from underneath...if you don't know why, don't do it at all!!)with new tuning pins. Now it looks perfect (well, mostly...but perfect for a correcting job anyway) and stays in tune...

So, get a professional to do this, if you do. You could TRY, once you commit to doing the work anyway, having him/her lower tension, pry the strings off the bass bridge, and using a buffing wheel or winding them up and down, to see if it improves tone...but I doubt it will....I say this because its my guess that you LEFT some residue, and that's what deadened the sound. If you get the tech to hyper flex the strings, it could help...and since its somebody else doing the job, please ask him/her to satisfy our curiosity, say what??

New strings....that's the fix.

RPD

This is a very interesting subject. We can speculate until somebody presents some proven theory of why the bass string becomes dead with the application of some liquids, and according to previous posts there is no CPR for it.
Let's start defining dead. I understand by dead that the string losses amplitude on the higher overtones. Please correct ime if the definition of dead is otherwise.
If the string is modeled as a mass, spring, and damper system we can imagine that the first two parameters are not varied with the application of liquid. Mass added by liquid is negligible, and the spring rate is mostly given by the core and therefore not modified with the liquid. The third parameter, the damping, somehow increases and it is high enough to be noticeable on the higher overtones. Now, which one is the mechanism that makes the damping increase? I would think that the liquid adheres to two adjacent surfaces of the string that are close enough that when the string vibrates and the distance between the surfaces is shorter these layers get in contact, deform and absorb energy. The liquid surface layer forms a good bond with the base metal and that may be the reason why it can not be cleaned. Again, all this is speculation.
Regards
Krikorik

The bond of copper wrap on steel core piano wire is just the sweadging at both ends of copper mashed onto a flatened core wire surface plus the pressure of the length of copper on the core wire. Copper is soft so it molds to the steel.
They put the core wire in a lathe, pull the copper taut and spin and wind. Ari Issac still feeds the copper by hand.
Did you try adding a twist to the wire in the direction of the winding?

Yes, it is a good explanation. Dampening!

I don't believe liquids can break the bond between core and winding. And for hat I know if a winding gets loose, the string will buzz rather than being dead.

I have cleaned bass strings with a power drill and a brass carding tool with some limited success.

+1 I'm surprised no one has recommended this earlier since I had heard this was a standard treatment.

I'm also curious if heating (with industrial heat gun) the string would help. Clearly the liquid has had time to evaporate already, but if you were to heat the wire the residue might dissipate. This would obviously be tricky business so as not to damage anything (maybe lower tension and put a heat shield between the strings and the soundboard? Sounds risky).