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Re: Sostenuto Pedal [Re: Morodiene] #1295121
10/27/09 09:47 PM
10/27/09 09:47 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 728
South Carolina, USA
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wdot Offline
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 728
South Carolina, USA
Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by ChopinAddict
Originally Posted by wdot
I've seen the notation "TSP" in a couple of old editions of works like Liszt or Busoni transcriptions of Bach organ works. These were pretty clearly added by the editor, but they generally connote classic "pedal tone" situations.

What would the T stand for?

"The"? laugh

That actually was going to be my guess. grin I have no real idea what the notation "means," but it clearly indicates the use of the sostenuto pedal.

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Re: Sostenuto Pedal [Re: wdot] #1295139
10/27/09 10:19 PM
10/27/09 10:19 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 281
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PartyPianist Offline
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Both the "loud" and "soft" pedals are more often used to smudge inaccuracy in interpretation or lack of technical competence. In the progression of the piano literature we cannot do without them, but I recomend that anyone wishing to be thorough in their approach should perfect a piece first [sans pedale] and then consider pedaling enhancements.


You play it & I'll hum it, but currently rehearsing:

Bach WTC book 2 no 15 G major, no 20 A minor, no 22 Bb Minor
Mozart A minor Sonata K310
Mendelssohn Op 35 preludes and fuges
Busoni Carmen Fantasy
Rachmaninov Bb prelude OP 23 no 2
Lyapunov Humoreske Op 34
and others
Re: Sostenuto Pedal [Re: PartyPianist] #1295146
10/27/09 10:29 PM
10/27/09 10:29 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
Horowitzian Offline
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I'll grant that the damper pedal is fatally easy to overuse, but the una corda on a grand doesn't smudge anything; it merely changes the tone color.


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Sostenuto Pedal [Re: wdot] #1295157
10/27/09 10:51 PM
10/27/09 10:51 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,280
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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Originally Posted by wdot
Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by ChopinAddict
Originally Posted by wdot
I've seen the notation "TSP" in a couple of old editions of works like Liszt or Busoni transcriptions of Bach organ works. These were pretty clearly added by the editor, but they generally connote classic "pedal tone" situations.

What would the T stand for?

"The"? laugh

That actually was going to be my guess. grin I have no real idea what the notation "means," but it clearly indicates the use of the sostenuto pedal.


First: I doubt that the article "the" would be part of the abbreviated term; second: isn't it more likely that the abbreviation is not for English words?

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: Sostenuto Pedal [Re: Horowitzian] #1295161
10/27/09 10:55 PM
10/27/09 10:55 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 281
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PartyPianist Offline
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Originally Posted by Horowitzian
I'll grant that the damper pedal is fatally easy to overuse, but the una corda on a grand doesn't smudge anything; it merely changes the tone color.


Yes and no....with a piano quartet una corda can be used to smudge, as with large chordal progressions on solo piano. The "odd bum note" is easily missed in the pp crowd wink


You play it & I'll hum it, but currently rehearsing:

Bach WTC book 2 no 15 G major, no 20 A minor, no 22 Bb Minor
Mozart A minor Sonata K310
Mendelssohn Op 35 preludes and fuges
Busoni Carmen Fantasy
Rachmaninov Bb prelude OP 23 no 2
Lyapunov Humoreske Op 34
and others
Re: Sostenuto Pedal [Re: BruceD] #1295176
10/27/09 11:49 PM
10/27/09 11:49 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
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sotto voce Offline
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Originally Posted by BruceD
First: I doubt that the article "the" would be part of the abbreviated term; second: isn't it more likely that the abbreviation is not for English words?

Regards,

I'm with you on both counts there, Bruce, and it was baffling me! It took some searching, but I've found what I think is the most likely explanation for the abbreviation.

In German, the sostenuto pedal is referred to as the Tonhaltepedal or the Sostenuto-Pedal. That phrase—Tonhaltepedal or Sostenuto-Pedal—is translated as Tonhaltepedal oder Sostenuto-Pedal, and I believe that T.S.P. stands for exactly that: Tonhaltepedal oder Sostenuto-Pedal.

The nomenclature auf Deutsch for the pedal (but not the abbreviation) is confirmed here:

Klavier - Pedale

Flügel (Tasteninstrument)

Steven

Re: Sostenuto Pedal [Re: PartyPianist] #1295179
10/27/09 11:55 PM
10/27/09 11:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
Horowitzian Offline
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Horowitzian  Offline
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Originally Posted by PartyPianist
Originally Posted by Horowitzian
I'll grant that the damper pedal is fatally easy to overuse, but the una corda on a grand doesn't smudge anything; it merely changes the tone color.


Yes and no....with a piano quartet una corda can be used to smudge, as with large chordal progressions on solo piano. The "odd bum note" is easily missed in the pp crowd wink


I disagree. The blow distance doesn't change, unlike a "soft" pedal on uprights (and certain grands which have a fourth pedal, e.g. Stuart & Sons and the big Fazioli) which actually reduces the blow distance making it easier to "cheat" on pp passages. A properly regulated una corda combined with a well voiced piano merely alters the timbre of the notes played.

Last edited by Horowitzian; 10/28/09 01:52 AM. Reason: dang typos! :-)

Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Sostenuto Pedal [Re: Horowitzian] #1295209
10/28/09 01:41 AM
10/28/09 01:41 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 281
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PartyPianist Offline
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 281
Originally Posted by Horowitzian
Originally Posted by PartyPianist
Originally Posted by Horowitzian
I'll grant that the damper pedal is fatally easy to overuse, but the una corda on a grand doesn't smudge anything; it merely changes the tone color.


Yes and no....with a piano quartet una corda can be used to smudge, as with large chordal progressions on solo piano. The "odd bum note" is easily missed in the pp crowd wink


I disagree. The blow distance doesn't change, unlike a "soft" pedal on uprights (and certain grands which have a fourth peda;, e.g. Stuart & Sons and the big Fazioli) which actually reduces the blow distance making it easier to "cheat" on pp passages. A properly regulated una corda combined with a well voiced piano merely alters the timbre of the notes played.


You may disagree, but Gerard Willems who did the analysis of the last Sydney Piano Competetion was very critical of the Ukrainian girl for her over-use of the soft pedal in her performance of one of the Medelssohn piano trios. He described her effort as "bleached of detail" from memory, which is precisely the point I make.


You play it & I'll hum it, but currently rehearsing:

Bach WTC book 2 no 15 G major, no 20 A minor, no 22 Bb Minor
Mozart A minor Sonata K310
Mendelssohn Op 35 preludes and fuges
Busoni Carmen Fantasy
Rachmaninov Bb prelude OP 23 no 2
Lyapunov Humoreske Op 34
and others
Re: Sostenuto Pedal [Re: PartyPianist] #1295214
10/28/09 01:50 AM
10/28/09 01:50 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,233
Down Under
currawong Offline
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"Bleached of detail" is probably not the same as "smudged". I take the former to mean lacking in contrast, or clear articulation perhaps, whereas "smudged" implies "blurry".


Du holde Kunst...
Re: Sostenuto Pedal [Re: currawong] #1295217
10/28/09 02:00 AM
10/28/09 02:00 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
Horowitzian Offline
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Horowitzian  Offline
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Exactly, currawong. Overuse of the damper pedal is what produces a "smudged" sound.

"Bleached of detail" would indeed be an apt description for someone who keeps their foot on the una corda all the time, but that does not mean the una corda "smudges" the sound. The una corda is far more effective if used at strategic places within a performance. Of course that depends on the music, the timbre of the instrument, and of course the acoustics of the room.


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Sostenuto Pedal [Re: sotto voce] #1296416
10/30/09 01:49 AM
10/30/09 01:49 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,453
Land of the never-ending music
ChopinAddict Offline OP
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ChopinAddict  Offline OP
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,453
Land of the never-ending music
Originally Posted by sotto voce
Originally Posted by BruceD
First: I doubt that the article "the" would be part of the abbreviated term; second: isn't it more likely that the abbreviation is not for English words?

Regards,

I'm with you on both counts there, Bruce, and it was baffling me! It took some searching, but I've found what I think is the most likely explanation for the abbreviation.

In German, the sostenuto pedal is referred to as the Tonhaltepedal or the Sostenuto-Pedal. That phrase—Tonhaltepedal or Sostenuto-Pedal—is translated as Tonhaltepedal oder Sostenuto-Pedal, and I believe that T.S.P. stands for exactly that: Tonhaltepedal oder Sostenuto-Pedal.

The nomenclature auf Deutsch for the pedal (but not the abbreviation) is confirmed here:

Klavier - Pedale

Flügel (Tasteninstrument)

Steven


It could be and is even likely. I should have thought of the German word... blush
I agree that "the" wouldn't be in an abbreviation...



[Linked Image]

Music is my best friend.


Re: Sostenuto Pedal [Re: ChopinAddict] #1296489
10/30/09 08:26 AM
10/30/09 08:26 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
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sotto voce Offline
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Thanks for the comment, CA. It seemed a very plausible answer, and I was somewhat (though not terribly) surprised that it went unnoticed (or at least unacknowledged).

Steven

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