2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Who's Online Now
27 members (crab89, Georg Z., David B, Fried Chicken, AlkansBookcase, Bruce Sato, 8 invisible), 1,188 guests, and 290 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 728
W
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 728
Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by ChopinAddict
Originally Posted by wdot
I've seen the notation "TSP" in a couple of old editions of works like Liszt or Busoni transcriptions of Bach organ works. These were pretty clearly added by the editor, but they generally connote classic "pedal tone" situations.

What would the T stand for?

"The"? laugh

That actually was going to be my guess. grin I have no real idea what the notation "means," but it clearly indicates the use of the sostenuto pedal.

wdot #1295139 10/27/09 10:19 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 281
P
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 281
Both the "loud" and "soft" pedals are more often used to smudge inaccuracy in interpretation or lack of technical competence. In the progression of the piano literature we cannot do without them, but I recomend that anyone wishing to be thorough in their approach should perfect a piece first [sans pedale] and then consider pedaling enhancements.


You play it & I'll hum it, but currently rehearsing:

Bach WTC book 2 no 15 G major, no 20 A minor, no 22 Bb Minor
Mozart A minor Sonata K310
Mendelssohn Op 35 preludes and fuges
Busoni Carmen Fantasy
Rachmaninov Bb prelude OP 23 no 2
Lyapunov Humoreske Op 34
and others
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
8000 Post Club Member
Offline
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
I'll grant that the damper pedal is fatally easy to overuse, but the una corda on a grand doesn't smudge anything; it merely changes the tone color.


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
wdot #1295157 10/27/09 10:51 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 26,905
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 26,905
Originally Posted by wdot
Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by ChopinAddict
Originally Posted by wdot
I've seen the notation "TSP" in a couple of old editions of works like Liszt or Busoni transcriptions of Bach organ works. These were pretty clearly added by the editor, but they generally connote classic "pedal tone" situations.

What would the T stand for?

"The"? laugh

That actually was going to be my guess. grin I have no real idea what the notation "means," but it clearly indicates the use of the sostenuto pedal.


First: I doubt that the article "the" would be part of the abbreviated term; second: isn't it more likely that the abbreviation is not for English words?

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 281
P
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 281
Originally Posted by Horowitzian
I'll grant that the damper pedal is fatally easy to overuse, but the una corda on a grand doesn't smudge anything; it merely changes the tone color.


Yes and no....with a piano quartet una corda can be used to smudge, as with large chordal progressions on solo piano. The "odd bum note" is easily missed in the pp crowd wink


You play it & I'll hum it, but currently rehearsing:

Bach WTC book 2 no 15 G major, no 20 A minor, no 22 Bb Minor
Mozart A minor Sonata K310
Mendelssohn Op 35 preludes and fuges
Busoni Carmen Fantasy
Rachmaninov Bb prelude OP 23 no 2
Lyapunov Humoreske Op 34
and others
BruceD #1295176 10/27/09 11:49 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
S
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
Originally Posted by BruceD
First: I doubt that the article "the" would be part of the abbreviated term; second: isn't it more likely that the abbreviation is not for English words?

Regards,

I'm with you on both counts there, Bruce, and it was baffling me! It took some searching, but I've found what I think is the most likely explanation for the abbreviation.

In German, the sostenuto pedal is referred to as the Tonhaltepedal or the Sostenuto-Pedal. That phrase—Tonhaltepedal or Sostenuto-Pedal—is translated as Tonhaltepedal oder Sostenuto-Pedal, and I believe that T.S.P. stands for exactly that: Tonhaltepedal oder Sostenuto-Pedal.

The nomenclature auf Deutsch for the pedal (but not the abbreviation) is confirmed here:

Klavier - Pedale

Flügel (Tasteninstrument)

Steven

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
8000 Post Club Member
Offline
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
Originally Posted by PartyPianist
Originally Posted by Horowitzian
I'll grant that the damper pedal is fatally easy to overuse, but the una corda on a grand doesn't smudge anything; it merely changes the tone color.


Yes and no....with a piano quartet una corda can be used to smudge, as with large chordal progressions on solo piano. The "odd bum note" is easily missed in the pp crowd wink


I disagree. The blow distance doesn't change, unlike a "soft" pedal on uprights (and certain grands which have a fourth pedal, e.g. Stuart & Sons and the big Fazioli) which actually reduces the blow distance making it easier to "cheat" on pp passages. A properly regulated una corda combined with a well voiced piano merely alters the timbre of the notes played.

Last edited by Horowitzian; 10/28/09 01:52 AM. Reason: dang typos! :-)

Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 281
P
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 281
Originally Posted by Horowitzian
Originally Posted by PartyPianist
Originally Posted by Horowitzian
I'll grant that the damper pedal is fatally easy to overuse, but the una corda on a grand doesn't smudge anything; it merely changes the tone color.


Yes and no....with a piano quartet una corda can be used to smudge, as with large chordal progressions on solo piano. The "odd bum note" is easily missed in the pp crowd wink


I disagree. The blow distance doesn't change, unlike a "soft" pedal on uprights (and certain grands which have a fourth peda;, e.g. Stuart & Sons and the big Fazioli) which actually reduces the blow distance making it easier to "cheat" on pp passages. A properly regulated una corda combined with a well voiced piano merely alters the timbre of the notes played.


You may disagree, but Gerard Willems who did the analysis of the last Sydney Piano Competetion was very critical of the Ukrainian girl for her over-use of the soft pedal in her performance of one of the Medelssohn piano trios. He described her effort as "bleached of detail" from memory, which is precisely the point I make.


You play it & I'll hum it, but currently rehearsing:

Bach WTC book 2 no 15 G major, no 20 A minor, no 22 Bb Minor
Mozart A minor Sonata K310
Mendelssohn Op 35 preludes and fuges
Busoni Carmen Fantasy
Rachmaninov Bb prelude OP 23 no 2
Lyapunov Humoreske Op 34
and others
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,305
C
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,305
"Bleached of detail" is probably not the same as "smudged". I take the former to mean lacking in contrast, or clear articulation perhaps, whereas "smudged" implies "blurry".


Du holde Kunst...
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
8000 Post Club Member
Offline
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
Exactly, currawong. Overuse of the damper pedal is what produces a "smudged" sound.

"Bleached of detail" would indeed be an apt description for someone who keeps their foot on the una corda all the time, but that does not mean the una corda "smudges" the sound. The una corda is far more effective if used at strategic places within a performance. Of course that depends on the music, the timbre of the instrument, and of course the acoustics of the room.


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,453
6000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,453
Originally Posted by sotto voce
Originally Posted by BruceD
First: I doubt that the article "the" would be part of the abbreviated term; second: isn't it more likely that the abbreviation is not for English words?

Regards,

I'm with you on both counts there, Bruce, and it was baffling me! It took some searching, but I've found what I think is the most likely explanation for the abbreviation.

In German, the sostenuto pedal is referred to as the Tonhaltepedal or the Sostenuto-Pedal. That phrase—Tonhaltepedal or Sostenuto-Pedal—is translated as Tonhaltepedal oder Sostenuto-Pedal, and I believe that T.S.P. stands for exactly that: Tonhaltepedal oder Sostenuto-Pedal.

The nomenclature auf Deutsch for the pedal (but not the abbreviation) is confirmed here:

Klavier - Pedale

Flügel (Tasteninstrument)

Steven


It could be and is even likely. I should have thought of the German word... blush
I agree that "the" wouldn't be in an abbreviation...



[Linked Image]

Music is my best friend.


Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
S
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
Thanks for the comment, CA. It seemed a very plausible answer, and I was somewhat (though not terribly) surprised that it went unnoticed (or at least unacknowledged).

Steven

Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Brendan, platuser 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
Piano World Has Been Sold!
--------------------
Forums RULES, Terms of Service & HELP
(updated 06/06/2022)
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
(ad)
(ad)
New Topics - Multiple Forums
How Much to Sell For?
by TexasMom1 - 04/15/24 10:23 PM
Song lyrics have become simpler and more repetitive
by FrankCox - 04/15/24 07:42 PM
New bass strings sound tubby
by Emery Wang - 04/15/24 06:54 PM
Pianodisc PDS-128+ calibration
by Dalem01 - 04/15/24 04:50 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics223,384
Posts3,349,164
Members111,630
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010

Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations |

Advertise on Piano World
| Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map


Copyright © VerticalScope Inc. All Rights Reserved.
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community.