Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Need some help with a new 15 yr old student

Well, Mati. I'm impressed. You must be incredibly determined to play like that, mostly self-taught. I would like to know how you did it, so I can bottle it and sell it.

Thanks Lollipop, I'm flattered. I'm just a guy who things nothing is impossible - but also with a mind of engineer (which I am, considering my computer science studies at the university). I have noticed that without systematic work on my technique and theory from ground up, I will sooner or later hit a wall and I won't be able to progress any further. It took time to notice that and get serious about piano - but the time before was also very enjoyable on its own.

My father plays guiter and harmonica for his own enjoyment, he never took any lessons. He knows nothing about music theory. Perhaps that's why I started piano without thinking about the proper learning method. You certainly can go somewhere that way! Perhaps its never too late to learn it properly, as long as no severe bad habits are involved, and these can be avoided with help of a teacher.

M.

UrbanSpice and dundundiddle:

Thanks so much for those great ideas of music for my 15 yr. old student. I listened to all of them online and printed out sample partial copies of some of them. This is exactly what she will like, I am sure. I really appreciate all your help!

Great post, Mati. I think there are many people who approach learning things the way you approached piano, and you described it really well. I do most things that way myself And I think you are right that a, IMHO, big risk of forcing someone to do it the "right" way is that they'll not do it all. Although, as the ABF shows, many of them will come back later, do it the way their temperament and interest and learning style suits, either find a formal teacher that appreciates them or other ways of progressing, and love every moment of learning and playing

So don't apologize or call it silly, either learning this way or posting here. It's good to be reminded that we're not all alike, and to have such an articulate insight into another style of learning.

And I love your music

Cathy

Mati,
Thank you so much for sharing your story... it’s not a “ridiculous” post at all. Instead, I think you are a wonderful example of what I have advocated for a long time, which is that there is more than one route to piano and music. The formal ‘method series with theory, scales, etc.’ approach works for many people. But it doesn’t work for everybody. And I agree completely with you that it is important to nurture a love and enthusiasm for playing piano, because without that, students are not likely to persevere in their studies.

You don’t have anything to apologize for. Yours is a valid perspective and a useful counter-example for those who believe there is only one right way to approach piano lessons.

Thank you, Mati, for your excellent response.

I see passion, purpose and commitment from what you have said about your journey.

I just find it very difficult to understand how to get to an end result that is magnificent piano literature without have completely prepared the way to do so.

Is there anything else you can tell me about yourself? For instance, are you identified as a genius? What has frustrated you the most musically in the last 5 years? Has it been important to you to have music vocabulary or music theory concepts to help with your understanding?

In teacher's lingo, the beginner is someone who started piano study from scratch, but who now can has learned to play hands together in simple literature, counts well, readys music and plays in Keys of C and possible G and F, for an octave in teach direction from Middle C. This level encompasses preparatory, early elementary and elementary levels fo study. At Late Elementary and early intermediate, the student begins to work on expressiveness, good use of dynamics and interpretive skills.

By late intermediate level, the easier of the master classics are possible. With more years of study, the advanced level and performance level open the doors to all music literature - covering any and all written notes possible on the music page and playable on the keyboard.

In piano teaching, the onus is on comprehension of reading and executing with accuracy on the piano. Each step of the way requires progress to that point before moving on to more difficult music. Obviously you worked alone outside of this process. I can be grateful that you were not a quitter and that you were not completely defeated by frustration. Perhaps the question is about how you stayed positive and got to where you are?

Doing what you love is always a great path to be on.

Best wishes,

Betty

Betty, by no means every musician follows that path you describe as the ideal. You may have a systematic program mapped out for your students (in fact, I think you should have) but there are many people who arrive at similar places without systematic instruction from a teacher over a number of years, and the process does not always entail frustration. Note that I'm not recommending anything, simply observing.

My own instruction was far from systematic, logical or step-by-step in the way you describe, but by the time I was in my twenties I was an accomplished pianist with diplomas and degrees, and maybe all the better for having ferreted a lot of my knowledge out for myself.

I suppose all I'm saying is that, as others have said, there is no single way to pianistic excellence. We teach in a way which we consider to be best for our students - but we shouldn't be too amazed if some of them manage some things on their own, or sometimes even do well in spite of our instruction!

I'm guessing Mati was able to stay positive because he wasn't listening to somebody like you telling him what was "required" for progress in piano and that he couldn't get where he wanted to be in piano following the path he chose.

Just guessing here, but I read Betty's post as in response to Mati's claim that he was a beginner. She was just trying to say that most of us teachers do not define beginner as someone who plays what he is playing.

I don't think she intended it as a floorplan for every student. But it does help to have a general idea of what consititutes a beginner level, what is intermediate, etc.

Perhaps you're right . What is intended is not always what comes across however, so I thought my point was worth making.
I personally don't tend to sort by beginner/intermediate/advanced so much, so it seemed a bit rigid to me.

Thanks Betty. I feel relieved, as I didn't want to insult anyone in this thread, yet my post was jumping out of the blue and for the brief moment I thought I shouldn't have written what I did.



I think there is some analogy to two counter theories about learning scales, both known for a very long time. Some great teachers of the past advocated scales study, while others thought enough amount of scales is employed in actual music literature.

My case is much more radical, but idea stays basically the same. I begun playing the piano with strong belief that everything I need, I will find in pieces.



No, not at all. Although I'm definitely a scientific mind. I always had strong affinity towards science - maths, physics, chemistry, et al. I never had trouble learning these things, they come to me naturally.

I'm studying computer science, which is and was my passion from the very childhood. I'm a computer programmer, and I am considered good at it, but I believe it is a result of my considerably longer time spent with these things than others, and not my absolute capabilities being better.



Definitely poor sight reading. I need to spend considerate amount of time to read a new piece, much more than I actually need to master it technically. Which comes straight from the lack of understanding of music theory and structure. While others can easily identify certain scales, chords, modulations and therefore read faster and anticipate easier, I basically need to read every single note.

It was one of the ignitors for my desire to learn music theory and work through my scales diligently.

For my whole journey I was learning music vocabulary and pieces of theory by reading a lot - for tempo and expression markings, by looking in the dictionary, and so on. I always worked through such things while working on actual pieces. When I first encountered a triplet in the sheet music I had no idea what it is or how to execute it. I had to look it up. I learned a lot that way, even though I never studied these concepts alone.

Finding a teacher brought a whole new dimension to my playing. While still not working on theory alone, she always pointed out interesting things about music. She would say "see? this is a d flat major chord arpeggio - don't read the notes one at a time, try to understand and memorize the whole pattern", or "see the key signature change? how do you thing the mood changes here?". She really got me interested in it. I, for the very first time, have seen that there is really much going on in music, and everything has its purpose.

By her recommendation I bought a book on music theory, and a book of scales and arpeggios (Cooke's Mastering Scales and Arpeggios) and begun my work. I asked her to incorporate more theory into our lessons, and she prompty agreed. We are a perfect match, and I am very happy she was able to work with me without theory, as much as I am happy she can teach me theory now when I started to want it.

By the way, if I may use this thread to ask this question - could you please recommend me some literature about musical analysis? I would love to learn more about structure. To understand these all ABA forms, sonata form, how there is an initial theme exposition, modulation into different key, then reprise. I have a desire to read about all these things a lot and understand a lot more. The problem is, most books are for future music majors who have much more knowledge than I do. I need something on the basic side, to progress further towards more advanced approach.



If we would include my severe rhythmical problems, I am still a beginner according to this very description!

It is really difficult to categorize people who work different ways. We always had discussions about what exactly is beginner and what is considered intermediate on Adult Beginners Forum. Because we all play different stuff, and all learn different things - I love classical, but others love new age or learn to improvise and play jazz - there is no single way to measure us all.

But I understand your point Betty, thanks for clarification!



Oh, not at all! The satisfaction of being able to play what I love was and is much bigger than any frustration that may occur along the way.

I'm not a quitter, but just the opposite. I thought my teacher would laugh at me, but she treated me seriously when I claimed I am going to participate in 2nd International Chopin Piano Competition for Amateur Pianists in 2012. We had one this year and it was so much fun to attend from the audience. I had a talk with many participating pianists, some of them were at very high level, some of them were true beginners (the word amateur is not very well defined and the level varied greatly). Then I decided I want to have fun too. I perhaps have no chances of going through the first round, but it is a great motivation.

One thing my teacher said, and I cannot agree more, is that we will need a great amount of systematic work and no slacking whatsoever.

It may be ridiculous, but it will be fun. And that's what matters to me.



I don't have much patience, and I'm a lazy guy. It's horrible when it comes to playing the instrument, which is extremely demanding of regular practice. Perhaps what allowed me to get me where I am were deadlines. I need deadlines. For me, e-citals on Adult Beginners Forum were such deadlines. I knew I had to prepare a solid piece every three months, and additional pieces for additional events. While many of them are work in progress till today, I had to bring them to playable condition for a certain date. That kept me on track.

The plans for competitions, even if I won't participate eventually, is such deadline for me too. It's a big goal, but having a certain path and light in the tunnel which shows me where I want to go helps a lot.


p.s. Thank you all for not bashing me and giving thumbs up! I appreciate it a lot.

My very best wishes,
Mateusz

Mati, Betty and Currawong raise points that are at the heart of what I find so fascinating about teaching music. Mati's story is not a strange one to me and I really like reading stories like this. I didn't have a straight path with a skilled teacher myself, far from it.

In turning a child (or adult)into a musician, I think that the most important attibutes are desire and determination to have this music stuff in their brains and under their fingers. But you can't teach desire and determination, right? Mati clearly has Desire and Determination and would not we all put money on Mati to be still playing music in 10 years? .. or in 20 years? Would Mati?

So we teach musicianship and pianism efficiently from the ground up so that the student is not frustrated by misunderstandings. And one day they notice that they are playing some rather beautiful music, it feels good under the fingers, and they now have access to more of the same through the skills they learnt from their teacher.

What is puzzling is that a lot of these skilled players suddenly stop, and may never play again or play any instrument at all. But I am very excited for those who find a way back later. The Desire and Determination on the ABForum is palpable, I am learning a lot from these people. And hey, I'm a returning adult-beginner-no-longer-beginner myself.

Betty's "In piano teaching, the onus is on comprehension of reading and executing with accuracy on the piano. Each step of the way requires progress to that point before moving on to more difficult music." raises the question:
Do we have to teach in a linear way?
What would happen it we didn't?

Most of the time I teach in a spiral pattern. For some students the linear approach works really well too. I got this from learning dance. My teacher was Eastern - it was different, unexpected, challenging. She used to say "Oh you Europeans, you need to have answers to everything." A student would ask "how many 'steps' were there before the turn?" and she wouldn't answer with a number, she would sing the music and move as if she was the music. Western, Eastern.. doesn't really matter but the point was that it was opening my mind to ways of thinking that are non-logical, non-linear.

Gosh I'm going on a bit! So I'll give the last word to William S Newman of "Pianist's Problems" (never recommend this book verbally. Write it down instead, especially to males). I'm not quoting exactly but he suggests that the number one goal of the first 6 months with a student should be to get them to fall in love with piano and music. That's it? Food for thought definitely, and maybe this relates to Mati's story, maybe we can deliberately cultivate some extra desire and determination.

edited typo

Great post, Canonie.
Just as a matter of interest did you know that in US most seem to say "pee-ANN-ist", not PEE-a-nist like we do here. So maybe you could recommend it verbally over there

the adult beginnners program has recordings of really PRETTY music.. it sounds simple.. (not Lizst)

you might ask there.

Great post Mati! I think I'll have to brew another cup of tea this morning. And thanks Currawong for reading my too long rant with no IMHO qualification at end. I am beginning to think that we have a lot in commmon (but bet you're way better at keyboard skills and repertoire knowledge). Of course, they say pee ANN ist! now I know how the title got past the editor

Mati I think you are an excellent case study for Adult Beginner. Very interested in what you say about being lazy and motivators. I have to insert good motivators into my study.

"I thought my teacher would laugh at me, but she treated me seriously when I claimed I am going to participate in 2nd International Chopin Piano Competition for Amateur Pianists in 2012."

Of course she should treat this seriously! But maybe some wouldn't. A goal like that will really lift someone's playing to a new level, and we shouldn't exclude adult learners from these opportunities. It's such a motivator when the teacher is genuinely interested in the student and their own particular journey, however unconventional, or slow, or too fast, or problematic.

One other thing I find interesting; I reckon Mati's tendency to call himself "beginner" reflects Mati's attitude of "still so much to learn, so much to improve". An artist of any kind who often sees themselves in Beginner-Shoes may reach higher levels through being less attached to their recognised accomplishments. It also breeds respect for the achievements of others who are at the highest level, which is a learning and motivating tool in itself.

Damn, the currawong stole the cat's breakfast AGAIN. I was distracted!

Those pesky currawongs!

Mati,

I have enjoyed having this conversation with you!

Betty

Betty
I think your post with all the questions to Mati brought out so many interesting and subtle issues. It has given me lots to think about today, as my posting shows I admire your ability to frame the questions instead of dismissing; a very experienced teacher could easily dismiss Mati's journey as a freak of nature.

The last day has been the best on PW for me so far. Thank you!