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#1291020 - 10/21/09 04:13 AM New DP for computer oriented pianist (CLP320/330)  
Joined: Oct 2009
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frat Offline
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frat  Offline
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Hi everyone
First, I wanted to thank all the people in this forum, this is my first post but I went through a lot of topic and I like the atmosphere around !
I would like to have your opinion about this.
I've started to play piano 2 years ago (I'm 23 now), I'm playing bass aside (for 5 years). And because I felt really frustrated to play one note at a time with bass and
because it was a child dream, I've started piano on my father's synth (a Roland E-35 sigh...)
As I was extremely motivated I played a lot and I'm still feeling as much motivated as at the beginning.
My DP was lame but thanks to Cubase (my father is a composer^^) and SampleTank, I experienced the VSTi and it was
just woah o_o, sound quality was so awesome.

Now I'm thinking of buying a new DP for two main reasons :
- to have a study piano with a nice better touch
- to have a keyboard to compose for myself

So, main problem is to have a nice touch because for the sounds, I think I'm gonna stay with VSTi except for the use as a study piano (let's say 50% of using !)
I've made a lot of research, I've played with them at the music store, and I've narrowed to CLP320/330
I've tried both of them, they're really nice, sounds really great, I must say I haven't felt that much difference in touch between GH and GH3
My question is : As I've played with non-weighted piano until now, will I feel soon a great difference between GH and GH3 that must explain the difference of price ?!

For those who have felt tied when choosing between those two pianos, what exactly have made you decide?

I know it's just a computer in a piano, even the store seller adviced me to choose the cheaper one of those two but I would like to know your opinion.

And as a last question, I would like to know if there's people here working with VSTi on a Clavinova and if they like them too or they'd rather like the "original" Clavinova sound.
I would also like to know if the touch feeling change something in the use of VSTi?(being able to play correctly from pp to fff for example...)

Thanks a lot if you have read everything anyway.
have great day !

(Sorry for my bad english, I'm french :S)

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#1291026 - 10/21/09 04:24 AM Re: New DP for computer oriented pianist (CLP320/330) [Re: frat]  
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Nikolas Offline
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DP have 3-4 velocity layers. If you consider that the new VSL Imperial grand (priced at around 450 euros though) has even 100 (!!!) velocity layers, plus other features like sympathetic/sustain resonance, proportional pedalling, sostenuto and una corda pedals, etc...

The Garritan Steinway, Galaxy II, pianoteq and maybe more VSTi pianos have the same features.

I personally think that VSTis are tons better than any DP sound (except maybe from the new Roland V Piano, but this is completely insanely priced for what we're talking about here (so not as regards to what it offers, but simlply ouf of budget).

A good DP with great feeling with help you perform better and be able to reach lower and higher velocities.

I hope the above help a little.

#1291030 - 10/21/09 04:34 AM Re: New DP for computer oriented pianist (CLP320/330) [Re: Nikolas]  
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AlphaTerminus Offline
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I think something like this: http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/17/pixel-qi-e-ink-lcd-hybrid-display-to-debut-on-tablet-next-mont/ combined with something like Pianoteq (works as vsti or standalone) would give you authentic piano feel, response, and sound.

I agree, if you have been using vsti sounds, you won't be happy with any DP native sound (except the 6000 dollar V-piano).

If you are going to use vsti, a pair of good 8 inch monitor speakers will make all the difference.

Your Clavinova ideas will be fine. Their action is good but no better than the Kawaii that I linked to, but any DP sound does not compare well to Pianoteq or Sythology Ivory... I prefer Pianoteq.


Acoustic: Yamaha C6.
Digital: Kawai VPC1 with Pianoteq
#1291034 - 10/21/09 04:51 AM Re: New DP for computer oriented pianist (CLP320/330) [Re: AlphaTerminus]  
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frat Offline
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Ok I wasn't sure about the fact that VSTi were way more interesting in terms of sound.
I actually already have very nice speakers to make (even the roland E35 !) sound like an awesome piano.
That's why I was mainly interested by a nice touch because in terms of sound well..I've tried on sampletank a yamaha concert grand and woah ! With nice speakers (and obviously a decent sound card), it's so awesome!

AlphaTerminus, I've tried the kawai CN22, it's really a good one, I just did rather like Yamaha touch (I've played during half an hour on each of them, sellers were mad smile )

Anyway, it's interesting to see that VSTi are really considered as great.
I wonder why people afford those very expensive DP as it is that great with VSTi? (mmh maybe it's just because I had this Sampletank licence and it's kinda expensive too)

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#1291038 - 10/21/09 05:00 AM Re: New DP for computer oriented pianist (CLP320/330) [Re: frat]  
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Nikolas Offline
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frat: For simple piano playing you could just get a 200 euros headphones (Sennheisser HD600/650) and feel/hear WONDERFUL. If there's no mixing involved (your father might feel bad with headphones), you should feel perfect with such good headphones.

I'm a composer working on computer games, so my interest is more in the sound, rather than the live feeling. Part reason on why people might not choose VSTis, is because:
a. It's not playable readily. With a DP you hit 'open' and play. With a VSTi, you need to load the computer, load the software, open speakers and so on.
b. No bugs! Computers are known to have bugs. DPs not!
c. The computing power one might need. Pianoteq 3 is not working really well on any single core anymore. You need a dual core, at least, and even that at very fast, hard playing will have crackles and clicks.
d. Latency. Latency is always an issue with VSTs. I am fortunate to have bought a good soundcard and deal with less than 10msec of latency, but it remains a problem.

List of VST pianos:
Pianoteq, by Modartt
Ivory, by Synthogy
Pianos, by EastWest (Quantum Leap actually but anyways).
Authorised Steinway, by Garritan
Truepianos, by I don't know the name
Black/White grand, by (I think it's) Sampletank
Galaxy II, don't remember company
Imperial Grand, by VSL

And could be others.

Pianoteq and truepianos are tiny. The Garritan Steinway is around 60 GB, Ivory around 40, VSL around 60, EWQL Pianos are 230 in total! As you can realise installing 230 GB of samples will take up a computer and a hard disk on their own.

(I, personally, prefer the Casio Privia touch/feel than anything else on that general price range).

#1291047 - 10/21/09 05:36 AM Re: New DP for computer oriented pianist (CLP320/330) [Re: Nikolas]  
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frat Offline
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frat  Offline
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Woah, thanks for your answer Nikolas !
I personnally don't want a VST pianos as I'm gonna use VST 50% of the time. (As you said, I sometimes feel a lot bored to load computer and so...)
I use the MIDI interface, my old Roland E35 worked very well with absolutely no latency with my old sound card (wawemedia 220M if I remember well) so I don't expect to have with a clavinova.
My father only work with a m-audio prokey88 around 150 Euros. He told me that I'm gonna be quickly bored by clavinoa sound in comparison with VSTi possibilities.
And heck yeah, it needs a lot of disk space( I remember my yamaha concert grand needs like 40Go space)

Anyway thanks a lot for the reference it's really interesting. I already have a nice decent sennheiser too(I'm working a lot with headphones)

I'm interested by your work. After work, I'm gonna listen the samples on your website !

#1291054 - 10/21/09 06:09 AM Re: New DP for computer oriented pianist (CLP320/330) [Re: frat]  
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Geoffk Offline
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The advantage of the GH3 keyboard is that it is supposedly more sensitive to rapid key repetition. The older GHE action might miss a key if you're really banging it with Franz Liszt speed. But for normal play/users, it isn't that big of a deal. The 330 also has damper resonance and some other internal features which improve the sound and realism. So if you were going to use the internal sound a lot, I'd advise you to get the 330 (or better yet, a 340). But just as a MIDI controller, the 320 is probably fine--overkill even.

If you think you'll be playing a lot with just the internal voices, I'd go for the 330. Just as a controller, either one is ok.

#1291086 - 10/21/09 08:23 AM Re: New DP for computer oriented pianist (CLP320/330) [Re: Geoffk]  
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marimorimo Offline
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Manila
I'm attracted to the possibilities of VST but probably won't be dabbling with it anytime soon because of 2 main reasons:

1) I'd have to buy some high-end speakers to get their full potential.
2) Said speakers + computer + wires + digital piano setup would look terrible in the living room, and would probably take up more space than I would like. But still, it's the aesthetic factor that's the largest drawback for me. It's probably a good setup if one always play in a private studio, but I want the piano in a public space.

Anyway, good luck with your purchase! Clavinovas are very good pianos. I wish I could've bought one if I had more money to burn!


Working on: Schumann Album for the Young, Clementi Op 36 No. 1 (all movements), Various Bach, Czerny 599
If you know of any good teachers in Manila, please let me know!
+ CASIO PX-720 and PX-730 +
#1291101 - 10/21/09 08:49 AM Re: New DP for computer oriented pianist (CLP320/330) [Re: marimorimo]  
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frat Offline
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frat  Offline
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Thanks Geoffk, yeah I'm more and more thinking about overusing VST so maybe 320 is far enough for me.

Marimorimo: 1) For the speakers, on Thomann site you can have some nice speakers for 45 Euros.
2) I admit that it takes some space, best thing is to place piano and computer on corner but yeah it's not the most aesthetic thing ever.

Anyway Clavinova can be very expensive that's why I'm pretty sure I will now choose the 320. thanks for your advices.

btw, I listened to the garratan steinway and it's really impressive !

#1291144 - 10/21/09 09:58 AM Re: New DP for computer oriented pianist (CLP320/330) [Re: frat]  
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Nikola Tulimirovic Offline
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Frat, I believe you should give Kawai CA51 a try. I think you may change your mind...

#1291184 - 10/21/09 10:39 AM Re: New DP for computer oriented pianist (CLP320/330) [Re: Nikola Tulimirovic]  
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MacMacMac Offline
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If you'll be using a synth, you won't be using most of what's inside of a digital piano. The keyboard is everything. I think the GH3 is vastly better than the GH/GHE. In a competition between the 320 and 330, I'd go for the 330.

But note that the CLP320 is just about the same as the cheaper YDP160. The latter doesn't look as nice, but it has the same keyboard, and it's only $1350 at online retailers. Probably about the same at local music stores?

If the appearance of a fine console is not important, you'll get more keyboard value from a stage piano. I'm not sure if Yamaha makes a stage model with a GH3 keyboard. If they do, and if it costs less than a CLP330 (which runs about $2000 I think), then you could go that route.

#1291364 - 10/21/09 04:07 PM Re: New DP for computer oriented pianist (CLP320/330) [Re: MacMacMac]  
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Martin C. Doege Offline
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac

If the appearance of a fine console is not important, you'll get more keyboard value from a stage piano. I'm not sure if Yamaha makes a stage model with a GH3 keyboard. If they do, and if it costs less than a CLP330 (which runs about $2000 I think), then you could go that route.


I don't think so, however the Korg SP-250 seems to use the Yamaha GH3 action. Its sounds are terrible, but as a controller for a VSTi it might not be such a bad idea. Although I think it's always better to buy a DP with halfway decent built-in sounds, so you don't have to use the VSTi all the time...


Yamaha P-85; Pianoteq Pleyel
#1291670 - 10/22/09 03:36 AM Re: New DP for computer oriented pianist (CLP320/330) [Re: Martin C. Doege]  
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frat Offline
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Originally Posted by Martin C. Doege

Although I think it's always better to buy a DP with halfway decent built-in sounds, so you don't have to use the VSTi all the time...


Yeah that's the main idea. I wanted also a decent aesthetic piano (girlfriend pression on me wink ), that's why my choice go to 320.
An yeah maybe I should try the kawai CA51, it just seems a little expensive for me. (I would like to stay under 1200 Euros if possible)

Last edited by frat; 10/22/09 03:36 AM.
#1291807 - 10/22/09 12:00 PM Re: New DP for computer oriented pianist (CLP320/330) [Re: frat]  
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Martin C. Doege Offline
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Martin C. Doege  Offline
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Originally Posted by frat
Originally Posted by Martin C. Doege

Although I think it's always better to buy a DP with halfway decent built-in sounds, so you don't have to use the VSTi all the time...


Yeah that's the main idea. I wanted also a decent aesthetic piano (girlfriend pression on me wink ), that's why my choice go to 320.
An yeah maybe I should try the kawai CA51, it just seems a little expensive for me. (I would like to stay under 1200 Euros if possible)


I tried a Kawai CA-something (was it a 51? -- I don't remember the model number) over headphones a few months ago and found the piano sound laughably bad. That was the only time a digital piano ever made me laugh! smile So I would definitely go for the Clavinova...


Yamaha P-85; Pianoteq Pleyel
#1291840 - 10/22/09 01:05 PM Re: New DP for computer oriented pianist (CLP320/330) [Re: frat]  
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Nikola Tulimirovic Offline
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Originally Posted by frat
An yeah maybe I should try the kawai CA51, it just seems a little expensive for me. (I would like to stay under 1200 Euros if possible)


If you’d like to stay under 1,200€, I think you’d be better off not trying Kawai CA51, for it may easily suck the money out of your pocket. I’m not kidding. Basically, that’s what happened to me.

#1291890 - 10/22/09 02:21 PM Re: New DP for computer oriented pianist (CLP320/330) [Re: AlphaTerminus]  
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AlphaTerminus Offline
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Oops, I realize my I linked to some random Engadget article in another open tab on my browser. I meant to link a Kawaii CE200, which has wooden keys and good action. Sorry.

Last edited by AlphaTerminus; 10/22/09 02:21 PM.

Acoustic: Yamaha C6.
Digital: Kawai VPC1 with Pianoteq
#1291906 - 10/22/09 02:45 PM Re: New DP for computer oriented pianist (CLP320/330) [Re: AlphaTerminus]  
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Frat, good headphones will let you hear the true quality of a DP's included sounds and are also very helpful for silent practice/composing. The money spent of the Sennheisers which were mentioned in an earlier post would be money well spent. (I've been using 580's and now the 600's for approximately four years.)

Alden does the digital piano section in Digital and Acoustic Piano Buyer, which is often referred to on the acoustic forum. He posted that the action mechanisms of all Yamaha graded hammer actions is essentially the same. The GH3 does have a third sensor, which is intended to facilitate fast repetition. That feature would be important for people who play the classical repertoire at a high level.






#1291907 - 10/22/09 02:46 PM Re: New DP for computer oriented pianist (CLP320/330) [Re: Martin C. Doege]  
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ChrisA Offline
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Quote

If the appearance of a fine console is not important, you'll get more keyboard value from a stage piano. I'm not sure if Yamaha makes a stage model with a GH3 keyboard. If they do, and if it costs less than a CLP330 (which runs about $2000 I think), then you could go that route.


I don't think that rumour is true. The Korg and yamaha do not have the same keyboard.

If you want a Yamaha stage piano with Yamaha's top line keyboard then look at the P-155. I think it is the lowest priced Yamaha with that keybed. About US$1100.




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