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I found this 'shape' method quite effective and intuitive if connected with good feel and good ear...Years ago I changed my style from playing scales and chords to "painting music with shapes (or chords)" and I never looked back. This gives me freedom of feeling the music and not to analyzing the music.

I don't understand this one or the other thinking... playing "shapes" is another tool in the toolbox. Throwing out some concept of scales and chords is silly. Chord/sclaes are the ABCs of music. You learn them very well, and then you don't need to think much about them, you just know the geography. "Shapes" are moved across pools of notes (scales) and played over "chord changes" on standards. And standards don't stay in the same key the whole song...you will need to shift key/scale/chords. How about a Db7#9 b13 all of a sudden in a standard in C maj? And what about the biggest part of jazz piano: single note solos... you gonna just play "shapes" for your solos without any association to scale/chord ? I would like to hear some samples of the folks here claiming they ignore the chord changes and the scale associations when they play a jazz standard. I don't believe it, let's hear some demos with solos.

Like I said earlier, this is a "diatonic" pattern so if you just blindly limit it to diatonic movement (staying within the scale), it could be quite limiting. So I'm taking it a little further. I'm learning how take a diatonic shape and move in and out of the scale. It's not random though so it does require some thinking and pre-planning (and practice). I do it by studying the effect of moving a single note in the shape up and down a half step. I think that's when these shapes give you a lot of control.

But sticking to diatonic movement only for a moment, Bill Evans was big on moving a triad pattern up and down the scale. That was his "shape".

I'm having fun with this. Squeezing a little bit of it in my daily practice. It has a bit of a "play by ear" structure to it.

I didn't see your post Jazz+. Just to be clear, I'm not into random noodling up and down the scale. Your choices could clash with the RH solo. So I actually see this as a tool to play the modes inside a scale, which means you still have to worry about avoid notes like the 4 on a I chord (like switching to Lydian mode).

Of course the people who use it well move through different scales and keys for appropriate to the changes. It sounds one dimensional to just stay in a single diatonic harmony. That might be how you begin to practice it but eveantually you want to be able to navigate through altered chords, diminished, and minor harmonies. Try it on "You Must Believe In Spring" or "The Island" in The New Real Book Volume I , okay? It won't work staying in one diatonic harmony.

I thought we agreed already there are no chords and scales...
People just created them to complicate things.

Jazz+, have you listened to Taylor Eigsti's workshops, he gives several demos of playing "shapes" saying he has no idea which chord he just played. He does this on a few standards. Yes, you need to know the scale or key that you are in, and whatever altered note you are using, but you aren't thinking of changes, like D- to G7alt to Cmaj7.

You are thinking melody first, and how the shapes or harmony give it color or mood. I think you're just stuck in the old jazz pedagogy.

When Taylor says he doesn't know which "chord" he just played he means what particular voicings of the changes he played. He's making "shapes" but he still knows where he is at in the form (= chord changes). He knows his ABCs... there are many levels to function on.

bingo was his name....

I agree with jazz+ on this one.. It's really important that you have a grip on diatonic harmony first before you start experimenting with shapes and what not.. otherwise you don't have a foundation to start from. From what I am reading, the idea of chord shapes share the same fundamental idea as playing 'out'. Basically you have set of patterns, and you move them in/out of the harmony you are in.

It's only one of the many tools you can use, and certainly not an excuse to abandon the traditional/old jazz pedagozy as wizard describe it. As a pianist you need to have good understanding of extension, block chords.. etc.. hopefully you'll get to point where you can think of chords more in counterpoint, as individual notes moving to create a harmony.. Keith Jarret Bill Evan, Herbie Hancock, Clare Fischer, Fred Hersch, they all think in that level.. This may be the extreme end of diatonic thinking. For me it shows just how much of that "old jazz pedagoy" we really need to be a good pianist. It' takes a lifetime.

Btw I don't think you can use stack 5th voicing simply by the feel or the shape of the hands.. because depending on where you start your hand have to stretch further. For me I can "grab" Fmin11 stacked 5th voicing relatively easily, but I have to stretch my hands further to grab Cmaj7#11 stacked 5th voicing.

btw virtuossic mentioned different ways to work on polyphony.. one thing I did, (and still doing).. is learning vocal arrangement of Hi-Lo's by ear. I try to figure out everything without writing any of it down. It can be pretty tricky to figure out 4-5 part polyphony and find fingerings that would work(it's kind of like playing bach). this way not only are you training your ears to hear counterpoint, you actually get a chance to work on the technical side of playing counterpoint, which is very tricky.

Herbie Hancock mentioned Hi-lo's as a big influence, and Clare Fischer did the arrangement for them.. so you really can't go wrong with that

etctera, just to clarify what's being discussed here, the Taylor methodology is based on DIATONIC HARMONY. In fact, it is ONLY diatonic movement. So the shapes are not exact shapes (due to shifting white/black notes).

This is why I note that one needs to understand the implications of this, and that is complete awareness of your current diatonic scale. For the most part, it seems that the Taylor approach promotes horizontal playing to keep yourself inside the scale.

There's justification for this approach for sure. But it's not an end all. In ballad playing, you have all the time in the world to move your chords diatonically up different modes to show some melodic LH movement. Playing mid-tempo though, you risk being out of synch and be unclear about stating harmony. But this can depend on the shape involved.

I think this is a nice approach in comping since there you need the movement. Even if you get beyond the issue of harmony in the LH at midtempo, you run the risk of being too busy with the LH as well.

So I think a lot of this is context. I myself can't think of a good LH application for this when soloing at midtempo and up. Unless someone can elucidate.

Works especially well on modal tunes

Exactly. Any time you stay on a single scale for a long time, this creates nice movement.

Can't imagine using it when soloing on ATTYA at 200bpm though

It's also good for a lot of funk tunes or any style tunes that vamp on a single chord or two.

Modal Tunes:

Maiden Voyage
So What
Impressions
Little Sunflower
Freedom Jazz Dance
Passion Dance
Take Five
My Favorite Things (Coltrane's version)
Eighty One
Mr Clean

I think those "shapes" can work well over modal tune or even blues if you play like mccoy tyner/chick corea pentatonic stuff.. but at that point its not really diatonic. The LH is moving chormatically or diatonically, depending on how much tension you want to create. I guess I can probably explain it better with a transcription I did than with words.

I guess I am still a little confused, can't you get the same kind of "shape" by playing 4th voicing, so what chords, block chords (both closed and dropped 2)? I haven't read the whole thread in detail, but a lot of the 'shapes' described are just 4th chords.

or are you talking about making (random) diatonic clusters and moving them diatonically? like for example you can play Cmaj7#11 as (starting from middle C)

LH-CDEFF#
RH-GCDG,

and moving them diatonically?

Other example I can think of is stacked thirds like this

on Dmin7
LH-DFA
RH-CEG

and moving them up and down.. I think Bill Evans do stuff like that.

Is this the kind of stuff you are talking about?