Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
What's Hot!!
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Piano Tuning
How to Tune Pianos
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Schumann's 4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Who's Online Now
80 registered members (anotherscott, 36251, amad23, ando, alfredo capurso, Almaviva, 14 invisible), 1,904 guests, and 1 spider.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#1290139 - 10/19/09 08:55 PM sostenuto pedals on a baby grand  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 167
tommytones Offline
Full Member
tommytones  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 167
Northeast America
Hello all out there in piano world!!! Just a quick question, any help would be much appreciated! Recently, I got into an argument with a colleague regarding sostenuto pedals. She claims that it is impossible to have a sostenuto pedal on a baby grand, while I maintain that as long as it's a grand style piano- baby and concert- that a sostenuto pedal on a baby grand is indeed quite possible. Who is right?
Thanks,
Tommytones


tommytones
Mus. B., Classical Piano Performance
Kawai No. 600
Roland Digital Piano Model No. HP 147
Wurlitzer Electronic Piano Model No. 200A
Hammond M-3
(ad 800)
PTG Journal
PTG Journal
#1290146 - 10/19/09 09:13 PM Re: sostenuto pedals on a baby grand [Re: tommytones]  
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 5
Kevin Glover Offline
Junior Member
Kevin Glover  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 5
You most certainly are smile

Even tiny little 5' grands have a sostenuto... Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever played a grand that doesn't.

#1290157 - 10/19/09 09:19 PM Re: sostenuto pedals on a baby grand [Re: tommytones]  
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,073
Gene Nelson Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Gene Nelson  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,073
Old Hangtown California
What size fits your/her description of baby?
Why is it impossible? Did she give you the reason/s?
When you say sostenuto pedal I assume that you mean the entire mechanism to go along with it - rod, mounting assembly, pittman and lift levers with tabs - or are we just talking pedals?


RPT
PTG Member
#1290182 - 10/19/09 09:44 PM Re: sostenuto pedals on a baby grand [Re: Gene Nelson]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 167
tommytones Offline
Full Member
tommytones  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 167
Northeast America
Thanks for the quick replies, Gene and Kevin!
Gene- I'm thinking anything under 5'10" qualifies as her definition of a baby grand. Does this change your answer for you?


tommytones
Mus. B., Classical Piano Performance
Kawai No. 600
Roland Digital Piano Model No. HP 147
Wurlitzer Electronic Piano Model No. 200A
Hammond M-3
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1290202 - 10/19/09 10:10 PM Re: sostenuto pedals on a baby grand [Re: tommytones]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 142
WeatherTheLizard Offline
Full Member
WeatherTheLizard  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 142
NY, US
I have a 4'5" grand piano and it has all 3 pedals.


Elizabeth
@->-->--

Kimball 4520, Yamaha CP70-B, Yamaha PSR-150
#1290217 - 10/19/09 10:42 PM Re: sostenuto pedals on a baby grand [Re: WeatherTheLizard]  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,645
Dave Stahl Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Dave Stahl  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,645
3 pedals don't necessarily mean one is a sostenuto...


Promote Harmony in the Universe...Tune your piano!

Dave Stahl, RPT
Piano Technician's Guild
San Jose, CA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAniw3m7L2I
http://dstahlpiano.net
#1290224 - 10/19/09 11:01 PM Re: sostenuto pedals on a baby grand [Re: Dave Stahl]  
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member
sotto voce  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Originally Posted by Dave Stahl
3 pedals don't necessarily mean one is a sostenuto...

That's true. It's possible that a grand piano, probably a low-end one, could have a middle pedal that functions like the one on a typical upright by lifting all dampers in the bass section.

Still, there's no basis at all for the OP's friend's assertion. She's wrong.

Steven

#1290227 - 10/19/09 11:08 PM Re: sostenuto pedals on a baby grand [Re: Dave Stahl]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 142
WeatherTheLizard Offline
Full Member
WeatherTheLizard  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 142
NY, US
Originally Posted by Dave Stahl
3 pedals don't necessarily mean one is a sostenuto...


Haha... I'm not entirely sure, that's why I wrote it that way. I never use the middle pedal!


Elizabeth
@->-->--

Kimball 4520, Yamaha CP70-B, Yamaha PSR-150
#1290464 - 10/20/09 11:05 AM Re: sostenuto pedals on a baby grand [Re: WeatherTheLizard]  
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,073
Gene Nelson Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Gene Nelson  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,073
Old Hangtown California
For me, under 5ft is baby - interesting how this opinion varies.
It is definitely possible to have full sostenuto on the smallest grand.
I have a 8'9" Hallet&Davis 1880's that does not have sostenuto and only has two pedals - it will have full sostenuto with three pedals when I finish the restoration.


RPT
PTG Member
#1290611 - 10/20/09 02:49 PM Re: sostenuto pedals on a baby grand [Re: Gene Nelson]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Silverwood Pianos  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada
Most modern grand pianos have a sostenuto assembly now; I would be surprised to view one that does not. The one that Gene has is an exception; it is an older piece. Everyone will see the size issue in a different way.
A very general distinction: the "concert grand" (between about 2.2 m and 3 m long) the "parlor grand" or "boudoir grand" (about 1.7 m to 2.2 m) and the smaller "baby grand".
Miniature grand =up to 5’2”
Baby grand = 5’2’ up to 5’8”
Parlour or Boudoir = 5’ 8” up to 6’6”
Semi-concert = 6’10” up to 7’ 6”
Concert grand= considered beyond that length.
And then you have the Alexander over there in New Zealand....I think it is 20ft. or 22ft. or something.....


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
#1290625 - 10/20/09 03:13 PM Re: sostenuto pedals on a baby grand [Re: Silverwood Pianos]  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,604
Marty Flinn Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Marty Flinn  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,604
There are many new sub-5'10" grands available today that have full working sostenuto functions. There are even a few high end uprights.

There are also many entry level grands that have a bass sustaining middle pedal function as well. The sostenuto linkage and action features are additional manufacturing costs. Believe it or not, there are many long term piano teachers who still do not know how a true sostenuto pedal functions. Very few composers who have ever written for this function.

The "names" for the sizes have been so misused and abused over the decades that there is no consensus. We always refer to specific length so as to avoid the ievitable confusion. I learned early on in my career that for some, any piano less than a concert grand was considered a "baby grand" as you can see there is a lot of room for confusion.


Co-Author of The Complete Idiot's Guide To Buying A Piano. A "must read" before you shop.
Work for west coast dealer for Yamaha, Schimmel, Bosendorfer, Wm. Knabe.
#1290652 - 10/20/09 03:49 PM Re: sostenuto pedals on a baby grand [Re: Marty Flinn]  
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member
sotto voce  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
"Miniature grand" is a new one to me! I've always disdained the term "baby" grand, and it turns out I'm one inch away from being miniature. [Linked Image]

But I dislike all those various names: the definitions are fuzzy, and none of them serves to distinguishing one type of piano from another in the way that a grand piano is different from a vertical piano.

Steven

#1290695 - 10/20/09 04:51 PM Re: sostenuto pedals on a baby grand [Re: sotto voce]  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Jerry Groot RPT  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Quote
there are many long term piano teachers who still do not know how a true sostenuto pedal functions.


I get many music teachers that get all 3 pedal names mixed up. Some of them call the sostenuto pedal the una corda pedal or visa versa. While the sustaining pedal is often called the loud pedal. sleep




Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
#1290718 - 10/20/09 05:16 PM Re: sostenuto pedals on a baby grand [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Silverwood Pianos  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada

I always make a joke out of it and call it a standard piano.... gas, brake, and clutch.


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
#1290732 - 10/20/09 05:29 PM Re: sostenuto pedals on a baby grand [Re: Silverwood Pianos]  
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member
sotto voce  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
It makes sense, Dan, considering how many people have a lead foot and ride the clutch ... wherever they're seated. grin

Steven

#1290738 - 10/20/09 05:37 PM Re: sostenuto pedals on a baby grand [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 295
Jim Moy Offline
Full Member
Jim Moy  Offline
Full Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 295
Fort Collins - Loveland, CO
Originally Posted by Jerry Groot RPT
I get many music teachers that get all 3 pedal names mixed up. Some of them call the sostenuto pedal the una corda pedal or visa versa.

Here's me on the phone: "...are you talking about the pedal that lifts all the dampers so you can hear all the notes sounding at the same time? ... oh, no, that would be the pedal that holds the dampers up for the notes where you are already holding them up by holding the keys down ... correct, that would be the middle pedal ..." tired


Jim Moy, RPT
Moy Piano Service, LLC
Fort Collins and Loveland, Colorado
http://www.moypiano.com
#1290845 - 10/20/09 08:06 PM Re: sostenuto pedals on a baby grand [Re: Marty Flinn]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 167
tommytones Offline
Full Member
tommytones  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 167
Northeast America
[quote=Marty Flinn]Believe it or not, there are many long term piano teachers who still do not know how a true sostenuto pedal functions. Very few composers who have ever written for this function.quote]

Marty, that's me, a long term piano teacher, who has a vague understanding of the assembly of a sostenuto pedal. To be sure, I definately don't confuse the names of the pedals, though. That would be a sin! If you have a concise explanation of how it functions, I would love to hear it!


tommytones
Mus. B., Classical Piano Performance
Kawai No. 600
Roland Digital Piano Model No. HP 147
Wurlitzer Electronic Piano Model No. 200A
Hammond M-3
#1291000 - 10/21/09 02:48 AM Re: sostenuto pedals on a baby grand [Re: tommytones]  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,417
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,417
Oakland
A sostenuto pedals holds the dampers on the notes which are depressed when the pedal is engaged, until the pedal is released.


Semipro Tech
#1291274 - 10/21/09 01:33 PM Re: sostenuto pedals on a baby grand [Re: BDB]  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,604
Marty Flinn Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Marty Flinn  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,604
Right pedal (sustain) - Lifts all of the dampers, sustain the notes you play with it down as well as adding string resonance of all the rest. Often called the loud pedal.

Midde pedal (sostenuto) - BDB nailed it above. Allows for a kind of phantom third hand on the keyboard.

Left pedal (una corda) - moves the key action (hammers) over to the right a smidge so the hammers contact one less string in the two and three string unisons, offering a slightly softer tone. Often called the soft pedal.


Co-Author of The Complete Idiot's Guide To Buying A Piano. A "must read" before you shop.
Work for west coast dealer for Yamaha, Schimmel, Bosendorfer, Wm. Knabe.
#1291278 - 10/21/09 01:42 PM Re: sostenuto pedals on a baby grand [Re: Marty Flinn]  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,417
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,417
Oakland
Quote
Midde pedal (sostenuto) - BDB nailed it above. Allows for a kind of phantom third hand on the keyboard.

I tuned an old 2-pedal Bechstein for a concert which included a new work. The page turner had to supply the third hand.


Semipro Tech
#1292037 - 10/22/09 06:47 PM Re: sostenuto pedals on a baby grand [Re: BDB]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 167
tommytones Offline
Full Member
tommytones  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 167
Northeast America
Originally Posted by BDB
A sostenuto pedals holds the dampers on the notes which are depressed when the pedal is engaged, until the pedal is released.


I know this much!!! I was trying to get a technical explanation (mechanical action, parts used, etc.)


tommytones
Mus. B., Classical Piano Performance
Kawai No. 600
Roland Digital Piano Model No. HP 147
Wurlitzer Electronic Piano Model No. 200A
Hammond M-3

Moderated by  Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
Pearl River & Ritmuller
Ritmuller Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


New Topics - Multiple Forums
Learn hands separate or together?
by hyena. 10/20/17 08:30 AM
Grand piano action bedding
by UnderConstruction. 10/20/17 08:17 AM
Does anyone here need/want a piano pal?
by MuddyFox. 10/20/17 06:47 AM
Kawai announces NOVUS NV10 hybrid digital piano
by Kawai James. 10/20/17 06:38 AM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics182,388
Posts2,665,826
Members88,990
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0