Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum A new article about Resale Value

Here is a factor that almost everyone overlook when purchasing a piano in America - that is, ease of resale and resale value. Let me tell you how significant this is when play into the whole equation. And as a result, I have identify only 5 brands that I would recommend one to buy when considering this "resale" factor.

May be not in the near future, but there may be a good chance that you may want or need to sell your piano in the future. Upgrading. Relocating. Life style change (A divorce or marriage). Change of space requirements, both bigger or smaller. You need money (a big one!!!). You want to free up space in your house. Or you may just look at your dusty piano one day and decide to get rid or it. Even if you die and never sell your piano, someone may still want to sell your piano after you die. The list is endless. I personally have sold pianos that I thought I was going to keep for the rest of my life. One of them is a Hamburg Steinway model B. At that time I was struggling in my career and I had no choice but to sell it. I quickly found a buyer that paid $55,000 for it. Just two years prior I paid $50,000 for it. I can assure you if it was any other piano, I would have trouble selling it fast and get even close to what I paid for it, let alone gaining $5000.

With that said, in addition to researching a good instrument, it is very important to buy a piano that sells relatively easily and have a decent resale value when it is time to unload it in the used market. But very few think about this when purchasing an instrument.

In general, Americans are easily marketed by big corporations and most of the time they are clueless about true quality - not just in pianos, but pretty much in everything else. In the piano market, the average consumer, or even pianists, are only familiar and trusting with a few brands. I personally disagree with some of these American preferences, but it is what they know and prefer, and if you want to sell to them, you have to play their game.

The truth is, there are a handful of wonderful pianos in the world. But most of them I will never buy or advice someone to buy in America. For example, I love the Italian piano Fazioli, as well as the German piano Grotrian. There are other premier brands like Seiler, bluthner, Mason and Hamlin, Steingraeber, Estonia, Sauter, Bechstein, just to name a few (By the way, any of these pianos is a better made piano in all aspects compared to a brand new New York Steinway in a showroom near you). But in America, I will not advice one to buy one of these brands. Not because they are not good pianos, but if you are trying to sell one of these piano in the used market, good luck. It will be extremely difficult to find a buyer and when you do, unless you are extremely lucky, you probably have to lower your price steeply, which means a poor resale value.

You can say whatever you want about a New York Steinway (and I have, see my piano buying guide in my website), but a Steinway will always be a Steinway and people in America in general will always want to buy a Steinway if they can afford it. That's why they tend to do well with resale value and it is much easier to find a buyer. The Bosendorfer, while not as well known as the Steinway in America, is still a world class brand that can attract a sizable pool of interested buyers in the used market. The Mason and Hamlin, however, while an excellent instrument, has what I call a "cult like" following among technicians and a small pool of enthusiasts who appreciate true quality workmanship. Almost all average consumer and believe it or not, most pianists (by that I mean people learning to play, university students, church players, gigging musicians, etc) , may never have heard of this American brand. I say this by experience - many pianists I have talked to have never heard of the M and H and if they have, they have never played on one therefore they do not know what a quality instrument it really is.

So here comes one of my core believes when purchasing a piano in America based on my resale philosophy. I have identify only 5 brands I would advice one to buy in America that can be easily sold in the used market with a decent resale value. Steinway. Bosendorfer. Yamaha. Kawai, and "may be" a Young Chang (at least all the Asians know about Young Chang). Any other brands, even the Mason & Hamlin and Baldwin, you will most likely struggle at some degree.

For my piano buying guide, just go to my website below and go to piano resources.

Ivory: All but one point..Baldwin..reason is..everyone has heard of Baldwin..if you couldn't afford a Steinway..Baldwin was the next step down..for the average home(income wise)
I'm in my 50s...and Yamaha has come a long way in the eyes of the general public..as a motorcycle maker..which I laughed at when I saw their first piano..I said to myself what does a motorcycle company know about building piano's? so here we are in 2006..and Yamaha is a well know piano maker
times have changed.. but Baldwin will always be the working man's Steinway... Bob Newbie

Bob N:
I said to myself what does a motorcycle company know about building piano's?

Whereas now that you know better[1] do you say what does/did a musical instrument manufacturer know about building motorcycles? . It is no coincidence that the Yamaha logo (also present on their motorcycles) is composed of three tuning forks...

-Michael B.
[1] 1900: first Yamaha upright piano. 1902: first Yamaha grand piano. 1955: first motorcycle (125cc 2-stroke)

Ivorytreasures said:

Quote

In general, Americans are easily marketed by big corporations and most of the time they are clueless about true quality - not just in pianos, but pretty much in everything else.

blah! If you are going to levy slurs against an entire country at least have the class to not be residing & earning your living from said "clueless" people! I'm sure there are denigrating generalizations that can be made up about people from Hong Kong as well, don't think you'd take too kindly to them though!

Your posts appear to be mainly advertisements for your business.

Indeed, the layperson knows about Baldwin, and it is held in fairly high regard by non-pianists I know. I would delete Young Chang from the list, as it never established a stellar reputation or had a history on the concert stage.

I think the majority around here have a pretty good handle on the resale argument. One may have to wait longer or get a little less $$ when we sell one of our "unique" pianos. Manufacturers and stores have "trade up" policies. Resale/brand knowledge isn't going to stop me from trying a Mason & Hamlin when the time comes to shop.

You know, pianists, teachers, and even dealers pay to advertise on this site.

[ducks and covers...]

Ivory: you seem to forget that thats how Yamaha became known.."advertising" on so many musical TV programs ..say in the last 25 years or so..Yamaha
Pianos were played..underwritten by Yamaha..so when parents saw that they figured ...well if so and so plays this... it must be good? same goes for Steinway..in old movies most/all the time when it a closeup shot of a piano player the label says Steinway! if there was a Fazoli back then..people today would be buying Fazoli's
its called marketing..not everyone who plays is
mechanically piano savvy..they trust their ear and
who else plays the piano their buying.. Bob Newbie

In the higher end of pianos the buyer will decide which piano he chooses to pay for and it will likely have little to do with the name on the fall board. Someone spending $50,000.00 (+-) on a piano will know all the other names and will not likely be buying a Yamaha, a Kawai, or a Young Chang. Yes those name are reconizable in the lower and mid priced pianos and there there is some truth to what Ivory is saying. But if you own a Mason & Hamlin, a Bluthner, a Bechstein, an Estonia, a Sauter, or any other higher end piano those with the money to spend will not be "Marketed" into buying a name. Those with less will buy the best their money can afford - likely a Yamaha, a Kawai, or a Young Chang.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In general, Americans are easily marketed by big corporations and most of the time they are clueless about true quality - not just in pianos, but pretty much in everything else.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What the heck?
Exactly WHO are you explaining this too?

While what you posted WAS true, with the Internet it is no longer the case. It is increasingly easy to sell used Tier 1 pianos in America. Those looking to buy a used, handmade piano of quality search the Internet for what they want.
And those looking to sell, also use the Internet.

I do agree and think the same is true in the UK. I recently sold a small Steinway upright for a good deal more than I payed for it only a year ago. This would not happen with any other instrument. I would like to upgrade my Wilh. Steinberg grand (which was a good price when I bought it) but would have little chance of getting back anywhere near what I payed for it. In some ways Yamaha is good and always sells well. The trouble is they are so common that prices are very competitive. At any one time you can find dozens of Yamahas on ebay at cheap prices. The only brand that seems to hold its value over here is S&S.

Ivoytreauseres,
I read with some interest your previous "article" about the different tones of pianos from a pianist point of view. In it, you described how you have reached to your opinion, and your experience in playing a certain amount of pianos.
Although I saw some validity in your points, I also found some flaws in them...but then again, the beauty of things regarding the perception of sound and touch and each may hold an opinion.
Now, you wrote that you played on hundreds of pianos to form those opinions, and that may seem impressive to some, but in comparison to other people whom I have met and spoke to, and who have performed on just as many, or far more instruments then you have, and hold different opinions then yours. Further more, some of these people are widely recognized as being in the top of their game and are internationally known world-class pianists. Still, all this experience performing on pianos is rather limited, in my opinion. The reason is simple. Take me for example, as a technician, dealer and someone who although isn’t a performing pianist is playing the instrument on a rather high level. It isn’t only that I have played many, many THOUSANDS of instruments…far more then you will ever play or encounter in three lifetimes as a performing pianist, but I also have the understanding of WHY those instruments sound the way they do, WHAT a good technician can do to change them, and What is inherit to the sound of the piano.

In fact, I can tell you that all too often, I see pianists either like, or disqualify pianos for reasons that are not permanent. Very few, if at all (until shown and explained), are capable of understanding what is due to the technicians work and what is due to the instruments own character…and I’m including in this some very high level pianists.

Now, I won’t hold my OPINION about pianos, in higher regard to other people opinion because I can understand the instruments better or because I have played at least 10 times more instruments then you did, for example…
Each is entitled to his subjective opinion in regards to sound, whether they understand where it comes from or not.
However, in this case, your new “article” about “resale value” is not only, in my educated opinion, contain some very, very bad advice…but is also based on unbelievably little experience.

First, since you don’t buy or sell pianos…it is rather evident that you have little clue about how this REALLY works.
Your experience of “selling” one or two particular pianos means nothing at all.
I probably buy and sell more higher end instruments every month then you have bought or sold over your lifetime, and here is where experience counts.
I also receive many calls and have conversations, practically on a daily basis, with people who want to sell their pianos (either privately or to a dealer), and have personally heard from buyers and sellers about THEIR own experiences involving the selling and buying of hundreds of different instruments privately or through a dealer…
I find your conclusions in the posted above article, and the reasoning for them to be so ridicules, that you should really reconsider renaming this thread as: “an opinion about resale value of pianos” rather then: “an article about resale value of instruments”.

Using the term “article” may suggest to some that this is actually a based on some valid research, experience, and understanding in piano sales….and it is rather obvious to me that it isn’t.

I may write a bit later, when I have some more time, a little more about the BASICS of resale value, from the standpoint of someone who actually have an experience in this field, but still…it will not be the holly grail but just an educated opinion. I will also give reasoning and explanations to WHY things are the way they are, so you’d know that what ever my opinion is, it is based on some logic and real life experience rather then selling or hearing about a few piano sales, so I suggest you read it carefully if you’re really interested in the reality of the subject.

Maybe after reading it, you’ll be on the first step of the research and understanding that’s needed in order to be able one day to write a true “article” about the subject.
At lease an article that will be worth the paper it’s written on, or the bandwidth it is occupying.

This “article”, in my opinion, isn’t.

Ori makes many strong points here.

As a dealer who has been i9n the business all my life, I too have spoken to hundreds of very fine pianists while they were evaluating instruments. For example, we were the 1st Yamaha Concert and Artist dealership in the USA. We handled the instruments and artists for the Kennedy Center and other highly respected concert venues, often voicing and regulating for some very finicky artists with strong opinions as to what they considered good performance.

Additionally, we count as valuable clients many colleges and highly respected schools of music, not the least of which is Peabody Conservatory. Evaluating thier needs, and those of their faculty has, over the years, provided a treasure trove of information.

The information I and other long-time dealers have gleaned from this process is FAR,FAR greater than any one person could experience in a lifetime.

Cripes, I'm getting soft, first time after years of lurking I agree w/Ori, unreal, Newbie, pick up the "Clue Phone" its ringing off the hook.

Can anyone explain to me why Bösendorfer, as opposed to Bechstein and Bluthner, has made such a big name for themselves in the US and some other countries? The situation is slightly different in Europe. Is it marketing or is it because the Americans have a slightly different taste. I am not excluding the possibility that the pompous name and the Viennese connection is easier to market. Another explanation could be that Bösendorfer simply is the better instrument. Maybe people in the US want to know that they get the best from Europe.

I am speaking relatively here. I am not saying that Bösendorfer is not a big name in Europe and I am not comparing quality here. I am genuinely curious about this phenomenon.

I find all three of them to be excellent instruments comparable in quality and I would be a happy owner of any of them.

Ivory also looks at the ability to resell from a very limited perspective - that of a professional pianist interested in instruments appropriate for musicians. Aren't most people buying pianos so that their kids can take lessons? When they sell their pianos, their market will be people w/similar needs/interests. So far as being able to predict which brands will be able to establish themselves in the market (thus providing a robust atmoshere for resale); only time can tell. I can remember when Yamaha first came to this country. Many people were dubious about buying Yamaha due to unclear quality and resale considerations. Now Yamaha is an institution! Young Chang, a little later, went through the same period of scrutiny but never established itself in the market as has Yamaha. It's important also to realise that the markets are changing. I could see a company like Pearl River becoming established in a few years thus providing resale opportunities for the PR's that are already in homes. I could certainly see Estonia becoming established. But noone knows. And for Mom and Pop looking for something to start lessons on it may not matter.

FYI, Yamaha got its start in 1887 building a reed organ. Motorcycles came long after this.
I assume you also haven't heard of Baldwin's situtation.

Incidently, Ivory, you have a beautiful website!

I have been in piano stores in my forty+ years in the business,in most every state in the union (not Hawaii,Darn it)and do you know whats common to most all of them? They all have grey market Yamahas, Kawai, Y.C's,and Samicks. Now that really keeps the value up,huh? Sir, you should stick to piano playing and leave writing to the writers and piano knowledge to the knowledgable
people.

I don't know Baldwin's "situation" other than it was aquired by Gibson guitar makers..which is fine by me..they know about instruments..and I've played some great Gibsons...but thats not the same as saying Cadillac ends up buying Baldwin..
then you can say what the heck does a car maker know about making pianos? Yahmaha became well know to the "general" public as a mortorcycle maker..not piano's same goes for Sears..everyone knows "Craftsman" tools.. but Sears sells other things.. Bob Newbie

'Baldwin' raises an interesting point. Musicians consider the only true Baldwins to be the Concert pianos. As a result of the prestige of these instruments, the general public is likely to buy a Baldwin branded product who's quality is in no way related to that of the flagship pianos.