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#1285441 - 10/12/09 11:26 AM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: kevinb]  
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I'm greatly enjoying this. Wonderful thread!

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#1285524 - 10/12/09 01:42 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: kevinb]  
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Thanks, Jazzwee, for posting my score.

You are all more advanced than I am, and I'm enjoying the different versions you've come up with. I will have to re-read this thread after I learn some more chords and some more theory. Looking forward to seeing what else you come up with.

In the meantime, I'm going to work on more variations with the little knowledge that I have. I probably won't post them unless I come up with something really interesting. I'm just going to play around with the three chords I know in each of the C, G, F, and A minor keys, and I may or may not change the basic melody, keeping it more or less recognizeable. I can have a lot of fun just doing that. I'm going to try it with some other nursery rhymes too.

Now I'm neglecting to practice my regular Alfred pieces to play around with "Mary Had a Little Lamb". And I thought I was way beyond that little tune. Go figure!

Oh, and Ten Left Thumbs, thanks. I have heard of the Zoom H2 from reading the threads about the recitals. That is on my ever growing wish list.


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#1285543 - 10/12/09 02:19 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: mom3gram]  
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Originally Posted by mom3gram

In the meantime, I'm going to work on more variations with the little knowledge that I have. I can have a lot of fun just doing that. I'm going to try it with some other nursery rhymes too.

Now I'm neglecting to practice my regular Alfred pieces to play around with "Mary Had a Little Lamb".
Just keep going until that's what you wake up in the morning wanting to do. At that moment you will have entered the creative state of mind.

Re practicing, creativity and knowledge are both necessary. There will be times when you don't feel like doing any more variations or new rhymes. That's the time to get back into Alfred's. But if you feel a creative impulse when practicing, immediately go with it.

Ultimately the goal is to play you.





#1285550 - 10/12/09 02:36 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: FogVilleLad]  
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TLT - I liked your "random notes in the bass" version - just goes to show that if you're moving the bass there aren't any wrong notes laugh

kevinb - I liked this, too

mom3gram - that is so cool that you could write out what you were doing. I couldn't have done that until I'd been playing, oh, 30 years :\

Cathy


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#1285559 - 10/12/09 02:49 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jotur]  
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Originally Posted by jotur
TLT - I liked your "random notes in the bass" version - just goes to show that if you're moving the bass there aren't any wrong notes laugh


Thanks Cathy. I had to really try to disengage my brain, and not think 'theory' or 'chords' but just random notes. Even so, I think I finished up on C! smile

You joining in Cathy? wink

Now jazzwee, I've been trying out some different chords, but I'm a bit puzzled by your next guidance. As a rule, I don't put triads in the LH - I was taught just to put a bass note, with the chord in the RH. Not saying that's the only way to do it, just that that's my 'default' setting, and I don't like hearing chords low down.

Thinking about the pattern you give (1, 3, 4) is taking me away from what I was about to do, which is to change chords more often, and make them more 'exciting'. Hopefully I'll post soon.

#1285575 - 10/12/09 03:09 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: ten left thumbs]  
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Hey TLT, the "shape" I gave you is made to be played like a rootless LH voicing. Meaning it's played near middle C somewhere. All I'm trying to get everyone to do here is relax and have fun and bend the ear a little bit to thinking that there isn't a wrong note or a wrong chord.

This is actually something we're discussing in the Non-Classical section. You could move this pattern around in the LH almost as a counter melody. Again there are reasons why these work but here, we follow Gyro's advice and just play.

There's a time to learn the "why's" but only after we hear the effect. I'm giving everyone a set limit here since you're playing in the key of C on one pattern, and the other pattern, you're playing one note away from the key of C.

I could come up with some interesting stuff just with this, and there's nothing to be concerned about. There's a physicality to the instrument and this gives a little confidence beyond just following a score.

When I played what I played, I really had little idea what would come out other than the fact that I recognized common tones so I knew "safe havens", like staying away from the F# scale... or B scale. How did I know that? Simple. C,D and E are going to be in conflict with 2 or 3 of the melody notes. Other than that, you really have free rein.







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#1285584 - 10/12/09 03:21 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]  
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Er - I'm afraid, the more you say, the less I understand. smile

Except that we're following Gyro's advice...

Tell you what, if my husband ever gets off the TV, I'll post something. If it's too late, I'll need to wait until tomorrow.

Now, if I'd followed Gyro's advice and got a digital piano, I wouldn't be in this fix...

#1285586 - 10/12/09 03:23 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: mom3gram]  
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Originally Posted by mom3gram
Thanks, Jazzwee, for posting my score.

You are all more advanced than I am, and I'm enjoying the different versions you've come up with. I will have to re-read this thread after I learn some more chords and some more theory. Looking forward to seeing what else you come up with.

In the meantime, I'm going to work on more variations with the little knowledge that I have. I probably won't post them unless I come up with something really interesting. I'm just going to play around with the three chords I know in each of the C, G, F, and A minor keys, and I may or may not change the basic melody, keeping it more or less recognizeable. I can have a lot of fun just doing that. I'm going to try it with some other nursery rhymes too.


Don't take this too seriously Mom3Gram smile There's no test or recital here. I'm just having everyone give it a try and experiment. It's a little bit of a confidence builder. I'm hoping you discover something and then we can discuss and hopefully learn.



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#1285591 - 10/12/09 03:27 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: ten left thumbs]  
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Originally Posted by ten left thumbs
Er - I'm afraid, the more you say, the less I understand. smile

Except that we're following Gyro's advice...

Tell you what, if my husband ever gets off the TV, I'll post something. If it's too late, I'll need to wait until tomorrow.

Now, if I'd followed Gyro's advice and got a digital piano, I wouldn't be in this fix...


Maybe I'll just have to make more examples. smile

I know you're surprised to hear me follow advice from Gyro but everyone hesitates like this is some complex thing. It's a nursery rhyme. We can't mess up. This is not a jazz standard wink So in this particular case, he's right. A rare moment.

Gyro, why don't you post something and join us here?



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#1285631 - 10/12/09 04:40 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]  
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Another recording:

http://www.box.net/shared/6ch79vbm0i

Apologies for the sound quality, I had to play quietly.

Perhaps, jazzwee, you could explain a little more what you mean by this:

Quote
One the left hand, instead of just triads, or even seventh chords, try a pattern. Here's one to try.

1-3-4. (Example D F G). And move this pattern up and down the white notes. It will sound interesting.


Do you mean that we play D F and G together or one-after-the-other, and what is the relationship with the chord in the RH? Or are there no chords in the RH?

#1285644 - 10/12/09 05:02 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: ten left thumbs]  
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That was very pretty TLT! Now that was a great exercise in Dynamics wasn't it smile I had to pull out my earphones to hear it. Shows off your Grade 8 skills...

In answer to your question, the idea is that 1-3-4 is the chord. There is no other chord. So the RH is just playing the melody. Because it is a cluster, it should be played higher up register wise.

But of course, you can also play it as an inversion. The other combination uses one Altered tone (1-3-4#). It creates some nice sounding chords.

These two options will give chord options that have an interesting sound. You will notice that the 1-3-4 doesn't sound good on C and D as the first note. That's because the 4 conflicts so you use the 4# (which is the #11 that Riddler was using).

If you skip the melody, you could play the chords on the RH and the bass note on the LH. The point is that with experimentation, you will come up with stuff you never thought of.

This is just a couple of possible "shapes". It could be in reverse for example, like 1-2-4. and 1-2-4#, although this fits better in the RH. You don't even have to think about what the chords are, you just listen.



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#1285668 - 10/12/09 05:51 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]  
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http://www.box.net/shared/hyl88cv4rh

Ok here's mine I used 1-6-2-5 chords.

Serge




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#1285691 - 10/12/09 06:37 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: Serge88]  
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Sounded great Serge! I thought at the end that you were going to repeat it at a half step up smile


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#1285766 - 10/12/09 09:24 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]  
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I'm sort of with Ten Left Thumbs, in that the more you say the less I understand. No problem though - I got the important part, and that's to play around with it.

Cathy, when I first started learning to play, I copied some of my lesson pieces onto blank staff paper to see if it would help me to remember the notes on the staff. For the last month or so, I've been trying to pick out simple melodies by ear and write them down. I hadn't done Mary yet, because I already knew that melody. It seems that I remembered it from playing something called "Melody Bells" (a set of different colored bells made for children) when I was a kid. So this is just taking what I was already doing and kicking it up a few notches.


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#1285794 - 10/12/09 10:26 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: mom3gram]  
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FUN REHARM

Nothing beats just listening. So this is what I'm talking about. I made a pattern, and the intervals are 1-5-7 and 1#-5-7. It's the same pattern as I was talking about previously but I inverted it so it works better as a LH voicing and it can be played in a lower register without getting muddy.

So put this pattern in your LH fingers in the scale of C as follows:
Pattern 1: F C E
Pattern 2: F# C E

Then playing the same melody of "Mary Had a Little Lamb", I just played these two patterns up and down a scale step at a time (alternating between the two patterns). In white keys, the pattern is very simple to move up the scale since the shape is exactly the same the whole way. I would be a little trickier in another key.

It sounds like this:

http://www.box.net/shared/gv0a46axyo

Now isn't that FUN OR WHAT?!!! grin

What chords where those? Who cares smile


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#1285796 - 10/12/09 10:31 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]  
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jazzwee - yes, that was fun smile

mom3gram - that's still cool -

serge - I loved it!

tlt - what a mournful sound! Did Mary lose her lamb? That was neat

Cathy


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#1285808 - 10/12/09 11:02 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jotur]  
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BTW - advanced side comment -- of course although I'm doing a "Gyro-like" exercise here (digging in as he says), that fact is, I know exactly what chords I was playing, which means I can repeat this in any key.

And depending on the register it is played, the pattern could represent multiple chords and be ambiguous in nature.

As you go lower down the registers, the bottom note of the chord begins to sound out as a clear root. This has to do with something in music theory called "overtones" and it is also why we tend to have a muddy sound in the lower registers so we spread the notes out more.

The alternating movement from a normal scale degree to an ALT chord provides chromatic voice leading which can be found in a lot of standards actually.

It's interesting stuff and I didn't plan this out. I just thought of it intellectually and then went to play it.



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#1285833 - 10/13/09 12:32 AM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]  
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Interesting stuff!

Ed


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#1285835 - 10/13/09 12:36 AM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]  
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Hey cool thread guys, I like to hear everyone's take and personal style! I will try and post one up soon, but I don't have a recording device at the moment. Actually, how do you all record your songs?

I borrowed my friend's MiniDisk, and then convert to mp3 on the computer. Do you have a mic hooked up to your comp and record direct?

If you want inspiration, here's Gabriela Montero doing her version of Happy Birthday:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6Aa92cZToI

Not too bad if I say so myself!!

#1286086 - 10/13/09 10:49 AM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]  
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Originally Posted by jazzwee
That was very pretty TLT! Now that was a great exercise in Dynamics wasn't it smile



Sorry! That was ****** inaudible! help

This was the kind of thing I meant:

http://www.box.net/shared/40c5vk2z5a

As for the shape-thingy-forget-about-chords-approach, I gave this a go. This was 1, 3, 4 ascending then descending:

http://www.box.net/shared/46mhvrkk0v

Bit of a strange idea. It can throw up some interesting harmonies, but I'm not sure about using it as a strategy for playing. I did a few different things, occasional good sounds, but a few real clonkers.

Perhaps we can discuss this some more?

#1286145 - 10/13/09 11:59 AM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: ten left thumbs]  
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Cool. What's the next exercise, teacher? wink

#1286150 - 10/13/09 12:06 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: ten left thumbs]  
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You think it was a strange idea? Not to me. You sounded pretty jazzy there with what you did using the 1-3-4. But use my inversion as it can allow you go to lower and use more altered sounds (more jazzy).

Now 1-3-4 (or my inversion 1-5-7) doesn't always work, so that's why you have to use your ear as to when to use 1-3-4# (#1-5-7). I was just going chromatic with mine but if I moved it around the options and sounds are endless, and this is just one pattern.

With just this one "shape", we could come up with interesting reharmonizations of Christmas songs in the key of C. I may have to re-title this thread smile

The trick here is to not stay in one of these chords for long (no more than 2 beats) so the dissonance doesn't linger. If you listen to these (especially mine) you will almost hear this alternating tension and release.



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#1286251 - 10/13/09 02:26 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]  
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This is a fun thread. Can I join ? I am terrible at chords stuff. But here is my contribution. I think I used C and Dm.

http://www.box.net/shared/ppvcoc2u1x#

(and no it is not my playing grin, it is a generated midi. I am at work and can not try it on the keyboard)

TB


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#1286267 - 10/13/09 02:50 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: (Was)TrueBeginner]  
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True Beginner, do you write the music for the 'on hold' part of my bank's telephone care-line? wink

#1286314 - 10/13/09 04:29 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: ten left thumbs]  
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TrueBeginner, that gave me quite a smile smile That was pretty peppy! The peppiest version so far smile

Well if you're terrible at chord stuff, this is the time to learn. Everyone can try out each other's approaches. Maybe you can show your chords here.



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#1286331 - 10/13/09 05:09 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]  
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True Beginner - that made me laugh - I loved it.

Cathy


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#1286337 - 10/13/09 05:21 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jotur]  
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Yes, True Beginner, that was great! smile

(Just wanted to make that clear, in case my comment above was a bit cheeky!)

This one was 1/5/7 alternate #1/5/7:

http://www.box.net/shared/9vxt3iddha

Yes, this is fun! smile

I wasn't sure, if I was supposed to sharpen a note, and the note was E, if I should really play and E# (aka F), but then I decided to just do whatever.

#1286357 - 10/13/09 06:32 PM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: ten left thumbs]  
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TLT, I had to smile on that one. That was truly experimental smile Basically what you got was a pallette of chords and then you can come up with any combination you want. Sometimes it will work out and sometimes not.

Some will come out weird no doubt. But some combinations will just work. Chromatic movement seems to work well so maybe do alternating patterns for a couple of chords.

I had a lot of fun with these patterns today. I was able to create some improvised music just moving around with this. It sounded great although I probably could not play it the same way each time. But it's not "Mary" so I didn't bother recording. Really fun though!

What these patterns do is mix between chords of the scale (1/5/7) with chords outside of the scale (#1/5/7) so you have to kind of alternate so the tension/dissonance gets a little bit of release by returning to the base key (C).

My favorite ones are the ones starting at F# (#11 voicing or suggests D7) and G# (b13 or suggests G7(b9) ). The Eb one is just a Cm. The Bb one is just a C7. The weirdest one is C# (suggests CMaj7(b9) or maybe a Db7(b5). I think that is the most dissonant so I avoided that except in passing.

As you can see, most of these chords aren't anything 'weird'. They're just out of the current key.

And yes, E# is just played with an F. The intervals change so it's really based on the notes of the scale.

BTW - I'm learning here too.


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#1286567 - 10/14/09 03:28 AM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: jazzwee]  
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Thought I'd have a go!
I deviated a bit from the melody but couldn't help it! I used
1,4,7,3,6,2,5,1 and threw in a diminished too.....

http://www.box.net/shared/fvhnebcpy0

Last edited by simon288; 10/14/09 03:31 AM.

Bill Evans spoke of the "universal mind" that exists in all people, if they can learn to think in the language that the universal mind uses -- a musical language that remains alive and well today, still scintillating, still expanding, still showing those who can hear it the depths of ecstasy and pain and life and love.
#1286743 - 10/14/09 09:35 AM Re: Nursery Rhymes Revisited: Reharmonization Fun [Re: simon288]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member
jazzwee  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
So. California
Simon that was great! A Ballad version smile Who would have thought of "Mary" as a ballad?

Good stuff being posted here. thumb

Later on I'll post a little discussion on scale degrees since everyone here seems to be familiar with IV-vii-iii-vi-ii-V-I (Circle of Fifths). We'll give it a little extra spin and maybe others can learn a bit about chords and music theory.



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