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Some thoughts:

I like the piano bar just the way it is. Right now there is a very supportive and encouraging atmosphere and there is a high level of participation.

I am opposed to anonymous feedback of any kind. When I get feedback on my songs, it's helpful to know who is posting so I have some idea where their opinion is coming from and how knowledgeable they are about music. I like to know how my music affects different people in different ways.

Most of us, including me, are not qualified to give informed technical input. In the piano bar, the feedback is usually about how the songs personally affected the listeners. I'm comfortable giving that kind of feedback. If I were to get more detailed input about my playing or composing, I would want it to be from someone who is qualified. I seek out feedback from lots of people outside the forum. It's all helpful, but I respond to it differently based on whether the person is a knowledgeable musician or not.

Anonymous feedback opens the door for abusive input and back and forth sniping like what goes on in response to YouTube videos.

I don't mind negative input; once my tuner/tech listened to one of my recordings and said "that sounds like crap". It was actually very helpful to me because he knows a lot about acoustics, and the mechanics of sound, so what he said caused me to do a lot of research about mic placement and things like that.

Alright, so I think it's fair to say everyone likes the idea of some kind of a rating system...glad we settled that one rather quickly

Seriously, I'm sure you guys and gals are wiser than me on this one, as you may have had some experience with this kind of feedback. I really don't know how I (or anyone else for that matter) would actually take it if I start receiving "bad" feedback for an extended period, god forbid! Soon I should be joining the bar and the recital and would love to have your feedback.

There is no way one could get any helpful information from your idea of judging each performer and rating them 1-5.

In one of the past Recitals, we had someone decide to rate each performer.

It was pretty ugly.

And I won't even comment on the infamous 'thread ratings' debacle.

But you are completely missing the point of what a Recital is about.

It's not to compare yourself to others, nor is it to judge their performances and rate them.

The purpose of the ABF Recitals is to join with others and feel part of the group, and to share your love through your music.

Looking forward to hearing your piece at the next World Famous ABF Recital, Nov. 15, 2009.


Mel

May be I shouldn't have called it a rating system because I do not really mean to have a competition system in which the rating indicates the winner. More free feedback is what I'm suggesting I guess. The idea is that when one records something and posts it to the forum, he can see a more "honest (?), more free (?), more detailed (?)" opinion through the grading system. When someone in the recital says good job, well done, beautiful, etc., that's really nice and I like to hear it and I highly regard those who take the time to give their words of encouragement, but I suspect there are many people (or may be a few like me) who would also like to hear a different feedback.

ok, here is another great idea , how about anonymous recordings? The thread owner collects the recordings without the artist's name on them, and everyone gets to give their opinion on it? I admit, everyone (except me) thinks the current system is just perfect with no need for further improvement, but I'll try any way .

I don't think that's a bad idea. It could be fun as a separate "recital".

I know you really would like feed back that isn't just "how nice." Do you really have a sense that a numbering system would provide that feed back? Because I just have no idea how it could, given all the issues we've talked about here - from the wide variety of experience levels to the wide variety of detail that the word "technique" would encompass.

I think, I may be wrong, that you think there isn't more of the "you have splashy octaves" (one of my favorite comments on my first recital piece) kind of critique is because people are just being too nice. But I don't actually think that's the reason, or at least not the main one. I think there's a lot of reasons, one being the time I referred to earlier. Another is, as several have said, a lack of expertise. For any classical past the level of Anna's notebook I simply don't have a detailed opinion - I don't know the literature much past just being familiar with a piece, and for sure don't know enough to comment on whether someone's trill is in the right place For the kinds of music I'm more familiar with - well, as I said, I will sometimes prefer a different tempo, or parts of a piece will be rushed, or I might even think the accents are not quite in the right place, or the dynamics could use some work. But I can't tell, from listening, much beyond that kind of feedback - I can't tell that it would be a richer piece if only the player used 13th chords or something. And I suspect many of us are like that in whatever genre we play.

I think Monica, who suggested posting in the pianists corner, or Peyton, who suggested posting in member recordings, are probably pretty right on about where you might get the kind of in depth critique you, and actually more than just you, would like to have in order to have specific things to work toward. You could try posting a piece here and asking specifically for critiques, but I think for the above reasons there won't be a lot. But I could be wrong. You could start a thread devoted just to people who want to post for those kinds of critiques and see what happens - those who want to receive and give that would know the thread is there, just as people go looking for other study threads. It certainly can't hurt to try.

But if you're actually looking for a rating of how good you are or aren't - it's not likely to happen in the ABF But there's some in the pianists corner who won't, as Monica says, pull any punches. There's the place to post if that's what you're really looking for

Cathy

Also, think about this: can you give the kind of feedback you're looking for, if you are looking for "ways to improve" feedback, to others? To what level, and in what genre? Could you, for instance, give me some critique on how to make an old standard "swing" more? Could you give some feedback on some of the Chopin pieces people here play? Would it mean much if you used a numerical system and gave me a "4" on musicality when I played an Irving Berlin piece if you don't know that genre at all?

In some ways what we all want to do is play tennis with people who are better than us so that we can get better But it's a 2-way street, too

Cathy

Well, it is almost guaranteed that - given your dogged persistence here with a series of proposals that have met with resounding disapproval and which have been rejected by the vast majority in spite of that persistence - that when you finally do get around to submitting a piece or two to the Bars and the Recital that you may just hear exactly what you want: a different feedback other than "good job, well done and beautiful"

JF

Music in Me, what I think you need to do is state quite explicitly, when you submit something to the piano bar, that you are ALSO requesting concrete and specific comments/suggestions on your technique. I guarantee that will elicit the kind of feedback you are looking for. I know that I do not offer specific, concrete suggestions unless the person has explicitly asked for such feedback.

If somehow another rating system comes about I'm gonna lose it all over again. That means DOUBLE trouble is comin and nobody wants that!

The *anonymous* performance and critique suggestion is great however. Someone could possibly send their performance to a neutral party to post like Monicas recital submission thread so we would'nt know who posted it. We then could all listen to the piece and give our HONEST feedback...(good or bad). The performer could then at a later date disclose his/her identity...(or not). Their choice.

That could be fun as we need to do something new and different once in a while.

A possible suggestion could be an ongoing *ABF critical discussion* thread. Members submit a tune and see what people think. You then either take credit for the performance or sneek away under the cover of darkness without anyone ever knowing if you want.

Yes, but I feel that Music in me is still after something that he or she cannot get out of the piano bar/recital.

Take two pianists. They play the same piece in exactly the same way. The first pianist has been self-taught for a year. They worked for months to get it to this level. The second took lessons for 10 years, and then sight-read through it in the middle of an earthquake. What kind of feedback are we going to give to these two people, on the basis of a recording alone?

When we share music in the bar, we are doing precisely that - sharing. Hopefully it will spark discussion, enthusiasm, cross-fertilisation of ideas. We are not qualified to give proper critique and doing so would ruin the atmosphere.

If someone wants an evaluation like, that was OK, brilliant, bit crap, for your level, then they really need a teacher. If they want constructive comments - 'here's how to make it better', then they can get this, if they specifically ask, in the right place.

Actually it's the anonimity that could be fun. Then again, we could just sit around and wait for another "I have no motivation to play" thread. That's always a party!

I just had a really funny idea. Peton submits a song anonymously.

There you have it ten left thumbs: Have a little contest called "Guess my Technical Level", or "Guess How Many Years of Experience", or "Pick Piece that Made You Cry", "Pick Piece that Cheered You Up", "Pick Piece you'd Love to Play Yourself", "Pick Piece that You Really Like", we can go on and on, and each category reveals something to the artist and raises the level of motivation.

Well, not my personal cup of tea, but there's nothing to stop you starting a thread along those lines, and seeing what happens.

Kind of like watching paint dry? I could do that all day!!!! Party, party, party!!

How about this for something new...

We take turns offering up a spot recital. For instance... I announce that I will host a spot recital. I will take the first five mp3's sent to me and put them up on my Box.net site. Then I will post the five on the forum with no names of the performers and folks can listen and give comments and suggestions. With only five submissions it would be easy to listen to all and really give them some time and consideration. Could be different and fun and... maybe even helpful. After a week performers can stay anonymous or let their names be announced.

Hi,
Ive been reading all the posts about a numbering system for the piano bar and the recitals. I think using a 1 -5 for evaluating a recording does not give the kind of feedback most members are looking for. So lets keep the piano bar and the rectials without any changes.
Dot

I completely agree. If these were live recitals, we wouldn't stand up after each performance and offer critique. Why should it be any different online?

If a member wants comments and suggestions, they are free to post under "Member Recordings."

LOL!!



hmmm!!
That sounds interesting...
and could be quite entertaintig trying to guess who's who!
I have a handful of favs I (think I) can spot a mile away!!