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Again Morodiene you are getting side tracked. If you really want a side track how the amygdala 'lights up' perceptions to re-enforce their retention is a good one. How do we get students to emote over what we wish to get into their memories and not emote over errors? I know Tony Buzan uses colours. This whole thread seems sidetracked, so why not? They first have to realize that they've actually solved the error. Psychological barriers happen all the time in singing and can prevent a singer from singing a high B-flat that they've done time and time again in other contexts without issue. As I said, it has to do with the approach. You cannot unlearn something, but you have to learn a new reaction. The best way to do this is to think about the meaning of that passage. Is it fear? Probably not, and therefore it has no place in the piece. They must understand what emotion is in the passage to replace the fear. Now there are certain techniques to emote in performing, but again, that is a side issue. In general, a performer can be in love mode or fear mode. The two cannot coexist in that person at a given moment. Either you are loving the audience enough to be completely open or you fear them and thus shut down any possibility of emoting. You are then only trying to get through with the right notes, and thus, have no room for emoting. Again, it has to do with creating a bridge to a new place, and not going on the old, dilapidated one that always leads you to where you do not wish to go.
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I'm not quite quite sure you get the subtlety of memory Morodienne. All memory is filtered by emotion. Every memory you have, no matter how tiny, is there because it means something to you emotionally, whether its a shopping list or a bar of a concerto. As putters-of-memories-in-other-people people we need to zoom in on this.
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I'm not quite quite sure you get the subtlety of memory Morodienne. All memory is filtered by emotion. Every memory you have, no matter how tiny, is there because it means something to you emotionally, whether its a shopping list or a bar of a concerto. As putters-of-memories-in-other-people people we need to zoom in on this. I don't see how this negates what I said. If a wrong note is there emotionally, then a new correct note needs to be replaced with the correct emotion, or nothing will change.
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Quite right except there is no 'correct' emotion as far as memory goes - any emotion will 'fix' something in memory. So likely, it's not an emotion that has anything to do with the piece. It's a split second lighting up of the frontal cortex by the amygdala (that is in fact one way to describe emotion) of something it feels needs to be held on to (notice I used the word 'feels').
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Quite right except there is no 'correct' emotion. But it's not an emotion that has anything to do with the piece. It's a split second lighting up of the frontal cortex by the amygdala (that is in fact one way to describe emotion) of something it feels needs to be held on to (notice I used the word 'feels'). No, but if you are trying to correct a mistake, or if you've corrected the mistake but the emotion of fear or anxiety is still there, it does need to be replaced with one that is more conducive for playing, preferably one that suits the musical moment. Sometimes it is the extra-musical emotion of Love Mode vs. Fear Mode which can help someone get through a difficult or previously difficult passage and focus on the musicality, other times one can associate the correct note with the affect of the piece itself.
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Quite right except there is no 'correct' emotion. But it's not an emotion that has anything to do with the piece. It's a split second lighting up of the frontal cortex by the amygdala (that is in fact one way to describe emotion) of something it feels needs to be held on to (notice I used the word 'feels'). What evidence is there for this business about every single memory being tied into emotions? I don't buy it. I would certainly like to see some something further if we're supposed to believe that you cannot remember a pattern of movements without recourse to emotion. Am I right in assuming that you are confusing the fact that memories CAN frequently be tied in with an emotional stimulus with the bogus notion that no memory can exist without reference to emotions? Are you suggesting that we memorise better if we undergo extremes of emotion while practising? I'd like to see some more on this, as I'm really not convinced that you are accurate in your claims. Certainly, we remember events and situations in which we felt the strongest emotions. However, is there any evidence that this has any bearing on how we remember an intricate pattern of movements? I'm not convinced that these things are interchangable.
Last edited by Nyiregyhazi; 10/06/09 02:09 PM.
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Quite right except there is no 'correct' emotion. But it's not an emotion that has anything to do with the piece. It's a split second lighting up of the frontal cortex by the amygdala (that is in fact one way to describe emotion) of something it feels needs to be held on to (notice I used the word 'feels'). What evidence is there for this business about every single memory being tied into emotions? I don't buy it. I would certainly like to see some something further if we're supposed to believe that you cannot remember a pattern of movements without recourse to emotion. Am I right in assuming that you are confusing the fact that memories CAN frequently be tied in with an emotional stimulus with the bogus notion that no memory can exist without reference to emotions? Are you suggesting that we memorise better if we undergo extremes of emotion while practising? I'm certainly not convinced. Good point. Just because some are tied doesn't mean all are. In the interview posted, I did not draw a conclusion from what this doctor stated that all memory is tied to an emotion. I do understand that emotion can be a trigger for remembering something. It appeared from the interview that this doctor had worked with only one patient with a completely disconnected right brain from left. I would need to see more research with other subjects to be able to draw any such conclusions. For example (and I know this is not research but allegory), I can memorize a word's definition. I may not have any emotional attachment to the word or to the circumstances of learning the definition, but I can memorize it. And certainly, it wouldn't take an emotional state for me to recollect the definition. It is an interesting hypothesis, but I'm not sure I believe it is the only way we learn.
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No, but if you are trying to correct a mistake, or if you've corrected the mistake but the emotion of fear or anxiety is still there, it does need to be replaced with one that is more conducive for playing, preferably one that suits the musical moment.
Emotion is post amgydala, a 'happening' brought about by the amygdala which takes place in the frontal cortex. Maybe that's why memories can't be changed? The damage has already been done - the amygdala has inscribed the perception on the mind. We don't so much want to induce an emotion for a new memory, we want to stimulate the amygdala to 'fire'.
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What evidence is there for this business about every single memory being tied into emotions? I don't buy it. I would certainly like to see some something further if we're supposed to believe that you cannot remember a pattern of movements without recourse to emotion. Am I right in assuming that you are confusing the fact that memories CAN frequently be tied in with an emotional stimulus with the bogus notion that no memory can exist without reference to emotions? Are you suggesting that we memorise better if we undergo extremes of emotion while practising? I'm certainly not convinced.
Good point. Just because some are tied doesn't mean all are. In the interview posted, I did not draw a conclusion from what this doctor stated that all memory is tied to an emotion. I'll try and dig up some more 'evidence', but at least we're on the same wavelength. How do you think memories are chosen out of the massive stimulus which is your daily life? You're getting bogged down with a common definition of emotion. Emotion is what the amygdala does, as movement is what a limb does. To think of all emotion as intensely felt is to lose sight of 99% of it.
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I think something to keep in mind that with music we are also involving Broca's area, which is the language center of the brain. This would be something interesting to research further, on how they inter-relate and how much emotion does actually play in the learning process.
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Amygdala Modulation of Memory Consolidation: Interaction with Other Brain Systems
James L. McGaughf2, Christa K. McIntyre and Ann E. Power
Center for the Neurobiology of Learning and Memory and Department of Neurobiology and Behavior, University of California, Irvine, California, 92697-3800
Available online 24 January 2003.
Abstract
There is a strong consensus that the amygdala is involved in mediating influences of emotional arousal and stress on learning and memory. There is extensive evidence that the basolateral amygdala (BLA) is a critical locus of integration of neuromodulatory influences regulating the consolidation of several forms of memory. Many drug and stress hormone influences converge in activating the release of norepinephrine (NE) within the BLA. Evidence from studies using in vivo microdialysis and high-performance liquid chromatography indicates that increases in amygdala NE levels assessed following inhibitory avoidance training correlate highly with subsequent retention. Other evidence indicates that NE influences on memory consolidation require muscarinic cholinergic activation within the BLA provided by projections from the nucleus basalis magnocellularis (NB). Evidence from several experiments indicates that activation of the BLA plays an essential role in modulating memory consolidation processes involving other brain regions. These findings provide strong support for the hypothesis that the BLA plays a critical role in regulating the consolidation of lasting memories of significant experiences.
Not that you would call bar X of Sonata X a significant experience. But can we make it so?
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Amygdala Modulation of Memory Consolidation: Interaction with Other Brain Systems
James L. McGaughf2, Christa K. McIntyre and Ann E. Power
Center for the Neurobiology of Learning and Memory and Department of Neurobiology and Behavior, University of California, Irvine, California, 92697-3800
Available online 24 January 2003.
Abstract
There is a strong consensus that the amygdala is involved in mediating influences of emotional arousal and stress on learning and memory. There is extensive evidence that the basolateral amygdala (BLA) is a critical locus of integration of neuromodulatory influences regulating the consolidation of several forms of memory. Many drug and stress hormone influences converge in activating the release of norepinephrine (NE) within the BLA. Evidence from studies using in vivo microdialysis and high-performance liquid chromatography indicates that increases in amygdala NE levels assessed following inhibitory avoidance training correlate highly with subsequent retention. Other evidence indicates that NE influences on memory consolidation require muscarinic cholinergic activation within the BLA provided by projections from the nucleus basalis magnocellularis (NB). Evidence from several experiments indicates that activation of the BLA plays an essential role in modulating memory consolidation processes involving other brain regions. These findings provide strong support for the hypothesis that the BLA plays a critical role in regulating the consolidation of lasting memories of significant experiences.
Not that you would call bar X of Sonata X a significant experience. But can we make it so? Right, but perhaps the whole piece can be. I'm sure we have all experienced a situation where a student loved a piece so much that they were able to overcome difficulties that perhaps in another piece they wouldn't have been able to accomplish.
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To get back to mistakes, I think we can quite definitely say a fear of mistakes (or any heightened emotion in response to them) will cause the amygdala to ingrain any a student makes, further consolidating them in memory.
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What evidence is there for this business about every single memory being tied into emotions? I don't buy it. I would certainly like to see some something further if we're supposed to believe that you cannot remember a pattern of movements without recourse to emotion. Am I right in assuming that you are confusing the fact that memories CAN frequently be tied in with an emotional stimulus with the bogus notion that no memory can exist without reference to emotions? Are you suggesting that we memorise better if we undergo extremes of emotion while practising? I'm certainly not convinced.
Good point. Just because some are tied doesn't mean all are. In the interview posted, I did not draw a conclusion from what this doctor stated that all memory is tied to an emotion. I'll try and dig up some more 'evidence', but at least we're on the same wavelength. How do you think memories are chosen out of the massive stimulus which is your daily life? You're getting bogged down with a common definition of emotion. Emotion is what the amygdala does, as movement is what a limb does. To think of all emotion as intensely felt is to lose sight of 99% of it. Yes, but are they the same issue? Sure we choose to remember situations more easily when we experience emotions. Does that suggest in any way that a movement must be tied to an emotion for it to be learnt? Not necessarily. Indeed, above all it's the emotions we remember from distinct situations- not how we moved at the time. There may be no relation at all. I'd like to see some evidence. Incidentally, if it's not about 'emotion' in the way the word is widely used- perhaps you simply shouldn't confused the matter by bringing up the notion of something 'meaning something to you'? If it's not emotion in the conventional sense, you didn't seem terribly aware of that when you used that phrase. Perhaps you've been on wikipedia a little more since then, but I'm not sure why you're now correcting Morodine for referring to it in the context you personally outlined.
Last edited by Nyiregyhazi; 10/06/09 03:30 PM.
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Amygdala Modulation of Memory Consolidation: Interaction with Other Brain Systems
James L. McGaughf2, Christa K. McIntyre and Ann E. Power
Center for the Neurobiology of Learning and Memory and Department of Neurobiology and Behavior, University of California, Irvine, California, 92697-3800
Available online 24 January 2003.
Abstract
There is a strong consensus that the amygdala is involved in mediating influences of emotional arousal and stress on learning and memory. There is extensive evidence that the basolateral amygdala (BLA) is a critical locus of integration of neuromodulatory influences regulating the consolidation of several forms of memory. Many drug and stress hormone influences converge in activating the release of norepinephrine (NE) within the BLA. Evidence from studies using in vivo microdialysis and high-performance liquid chromatography indicates that increases in amygdala NE levels assessed following inhibitory avoidance training correlate highly with subsequent retention. Other evidence indicates that NE influences on memory consolidation require muscarinic cholinergic activation within the BLA provided by projections from the nucleus basalis magnocellularis (NB). Evidence from several experiments indicates that activation of the BLA plays an essential role in modulating memory consolidation processes involving other brain regions. These findings provide strong support for the hypothesis that the BLA plays a critical role in regulating the consolidation of lasting memories of significant experiences.
Not that you would call bar X of Sonata X a significant experience. But can we make it so? I can't say that this sounds terribly specific to the memory in the sense of the abiity to replicate complex movements. I'm not ruling it out, but this doesn't particuarly convince me. I'm not necessarily going to feel that I ought to read a sad novel before practising and then attempt to cry while working on scales, based on this.
Last edited by Nyiregyhazi; 10/06/09 03:23 PM.
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Right, but perhaps the whole piece can be. I'm sure we have all experienced a situation where a student loved a piece so much that they were able to overcome difficulties that perhaps in another piece they wouldn't have been able to accomplish.
Surely because that love motivated them to work harder, in almost every single case? That doesn't rule out additional factors, but I can't say I'm convinced that it points to any great bearing on the issue. Ironically, when I love a piece the most I often find it hard to work to my best level, because I'm too interested in playing it through, rather than practising it productively.
Last edited by Nyiregyhazi; 10/06/09 03:26 PM.
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Slow, deliberate practice does not mean hesitation. However, I would say that a moment of hesitation is always better than going on to strike a wrong note (in practice time). Land on a a wrong note and you have a lot of work to do, if you don't want it to come back. Some people have the idea that any hesitation is ALWAYS a cardinal sin and that it's better to go wrong in any instance. In my opinion, it is a cardinal sin. Landing on a wrong note does not always ingrain that error. It must be repeated many times to do that - and yes that can make it hard to unlearn. But hesitating not only teaches you to hesitate on that note, it teaches you hesitation in general. You are obsessed with thinking that hitting a wrong note IS an error, but not hitting a note is not an error. It is. The hesitation is as much an error as the wrong note would be. The difference is hesitation is a far worse error, and a habit far more difficult to break. If you want to play so slowly you can avoid both errors, fine. The biggest danger in slow play is that you detach from time. Playing outside of time should be avoided. Playing in strict time but very slowly can work well.
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I agree, hesitation is not an alternative.
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I agree, hesitation is not an alternative. In the interest of fairness, I must also concede that anticipation is an error. It is less of a problem though. <grin> In teaching someone to hesitate rather than make a mistake, we teach them that when in doubt, do nothing. Unfortunately "nothing" is an error, so what we have taught is when in doubt make an error. Making the error produces instant punishment - IF the student perceives it. That's a function of their progress; some hear mistakes and some don't. The faster they learn to hear mistakes the more progress they make.
gotta go practice
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WHAT AN AWESOME THREAD!!!!!
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