2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Who's Online Now
50 members (Bruce Sato, APianistHasNoName, BillS728, bcalvanese, anotherscott, AlkansBookcase, Carey, CharlesXX, 10 invisible), 1,784 guests, and 302 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
#1279645 10/02/09 09:28 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,280
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,280
I apologize for starting a topic which has nothing to do with the piano, but I am hoping someone here might clear up some confusion I have had for a while.

How much of what we now know of the Requiem is from Mozart's hand and how much is 'added', 'interpolated', 'developed' by his amanuensis Sussmayr? Did S write entire sections himself, and if so, how much? Was S so familiar with M's thoughts and style that he could reasonably well render what M might have given us. Or is all is it Mozart?

I have read conflicting accounts.


"There are so many mornings that have not yet dawned." -- Rg Veda
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 39
D
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 39
Accounts are still conflicting. While the handwriting on the manuscripts has been analyzed, only a small portion of it was Mozart's (introitus, vocal parts of kyrie, sections of vocal parts elsewhere). Scholars disagree on how much Mozartean influence there is in the completion of Sussmayr (compare, for example, Maunder's and Beyer's completions; in fact, Maunder has published an interesting defense of his own judgments, may be worth a read if you haven't already).
With the abundance of interpretations available, it is to some extent left up to the individual listener to make up his mind. Does the Sanctus remind you of Mozart? Does it move you as much as another work by Mozart may? In a historical account I read recently (I, unfortunely, do not recall the author just now) the very good point was made that the Requiem is a product of Mozart's life not only through the notes he himself wrote, but through the circumstances of his death, his acquaintanceships, the Requiem's secretive commission. Aside from being "his work" it is an account of some circumstances of his life and death. In my view, that is one of the better ways to think about things.

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,280
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,280
Was Sussmayr a student of composition studying with Mozart - or was he a copyist? If he was a copyist could the differences in handwriting simply be the point at which Sussmayr took 'dictation' from Mozart, rather than being Sussmayr's own interpolations? Is that how Mozart operated - or perhaps Sussmayr simply cleaned up Mozart's sketches into some readable form.
Yes, much of the Requiem does sound like mozart to me - the music, the orchestration, the obvious dramatic interest in fullness of expression. It is one of the great orchestral masses. If it is mostly Sussmayr then we have a badly overlooked composer here - but I suspect that an examination of Sussmayr's work might show that it is not the equal of the Requiem.


"There are so many mornings that have not yet dawned." -- Rg Veda
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 39
D
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 39
Sussmayr was Mozart's student, as well as his copyist at times. From what I remember reading, Mozart discussed his compositions with Sussmayr (Mozart was known to say "it'll be years until you understand what I just did here", but it's up for debate whether that was genuine exasperation, a joke with a talented student, or a bit of both). Sussmayr was also apparently rather close with the Mozart family.
Constanze Mozart, Sussmayr and others have confirmed that the Requiem was largely unfinished at the time of Mozart's death, and only the first two sections (presumably the only complete or easily completed ones) were performed at that time. It's a generally known fact that composers were approached to complete the Requiem after Mozart's death, so it's unlikely that Sussmayr was simply taking dictation. It's possible that he was working from sketches, and some scholars have argued for this, but as no such sketches have survived, it's impossible to know. Constanze Mozart insisted that she gave Sussmayr Mozart sketches (though not necessarily ones for the Requiem), but Sussmayr in a letter to the publisher stated that he composed several sections anew. It is an interesting point that the recently discovered sketch of the Amen fugue was not included by Sussmayr, although it is apparently important to the overall structure of the Requiem (this explains also why it may have been written out by Mozart ahead of time; again, the name of the scholar in whom I read this eludes me).
I'm sure comparisons have been made between Sussmayr's own work and the Requiem. I personally have not read any, but I do remember seeing it mentioned that Sussmayr was a decently respected composer in his day.

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,759
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,759
Introitus -- the only movement completed in full by Mozart.

Kyrie -- the fugue is complete structurally (all the counterpoint is by Mozart), but two issues need to be addressed. The first issue is which instruments double which voice part. This is pretty self-explanatory, since the three instrumental groups of strings, winds (pairs of bassets-horns and bassoons) and trombones divide traditionally in this regard when it comes to doubling choral fugues. However, even Sussmayr screwed this up by slightly altering some of Mozart's counterpoint (some octave displacements and exchanging of parts) in the doubling process, leading to basic part-writing errors such as parallel/consecutive fifths and octaves. The second issue is the composition of the parts for trumpets and timpani, which are independent of the counterpoint. Sussmayr's trumpet and drum parts for this movement (and for his completion of the Requiem in general) work well enough, though compared to Mozart's writing he tends to use them a little too frequently.

Dies irae, Tuba mirum, Rex tremendae, Recordare, Confutatis, Domine Jesu, Hostias -- all voice parts (soli and chorus), are by Mozart. Mozart meticulously notated a complete figured bass for these movements, so the harmonic skeleton is complete. When the chorus and soli are not singing, Mozart would notate the main thematic/melodic material and sometimes accompaniment figuration in the instrumental introductions/interludes/etc., leading to what is in essence a continuity sketch for these movements. Sussmayr had to flesh out these movements based on what Mozart left behind.

Lacrimosa -- first eight bars by Mozart.

Amen fugue (conclusion of the Sequentia) -- the beginning of a fugue (subject and countersubject) survive (on a scrap of paper). Sussmayr ignores this (which may have been a good thing, assuming he knew of the fragment -- his hosanna "fugue" in the Sanctus is truly pathetic) and simply uses a plagal cadence.

Sanctus, Benedictus, Agnus Dei -- Sussmayr's own compositions, though some thematic material in the Benedictus comes from a movement from Mozart's notebook for Barbara Ployer. Analysis suggests that Sussmayr derived some of the motivic/thematic material of these movements from the earlier Mozart movements -- compare the D-C#-D-E-F bass line and its accompanying harmonies at the choral entries of the Introit (Mozart) and Agnus Dei (Sussmayr).

Lux aeterna -- except for the different texts, a literal repetition of a part of the Introitus and the Kyrie. Although it was common enough for requiem settings of the period to use such a literal repetition, I do wonder whether Mozart himself would've done so had he lived. Case in point: it was common for mass settings of the period to literally repeat the Kyrie for the Agnus Dei, but Mozart himself never did this in his many mass settings. He brings back a theme from the Kyrie in the Agnus Dei in his "Coronation" Mass, but they really are two different movements that happen to share a theme.

If Sussmayr's handwriting in the autograph resembles Mozart (though telling one from the other by modern handwriting analysis is fairly simple), it's because Constanze wanted to present the work as one completely by Mozart (to get all the money agreed to in the commission).

BTW, this post is a by-product of research for a paper I wrote about the work years ago (comparing various editions and completions). I even contemplated doing my own edition of the work.

Anyone still curious should read the introductions of the Beyer, Maunder, and Levin editions.


Die Krebs gehn zurucke,
Die Stockfisch bleiben dicke,
Die Karpfen viel fressen,
Die Predigt vergessen.

Die Predigt hat g'fallen.
Sie bleiben wie alle.
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 457
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 457
Thanks for that Janus.
Your post was most informative for me. I love the requiem and I too have wondered how much was Mozart and how much was Sussmayr. It is a pity that Mozart did not put more work into the Requiem. At the time of the commission he thought of himself more as a composer for the theatre - Opera - and instead of working on the Requiem he was busy working on La Clemenzia Di Tito (I think from memory).

Marcus


Oz Marcus
Currently working on:
Schubert Impromptu in C minor - D899
Chopin Prelude Op28 No 15, nocturne Op48 no 1
Bach Prelude & Fuge WTC II No 12 in F minor
Aspiring to Rautavaara - Piano Sonata 2 - Fire Sermon
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,280
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,280
Wow - I wasn't expecting so much expert knowledge - thanks everyone


"There are so many mornings that have not yet dawned." -- Rg Veda
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,218
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,218
Thanks from me, too. I just read a Mozart bio and got the Requiem on CD; I've listened to it a few times--- just enough to be barely familiar with the story and the work. Just enough to be interested in this very informative post.

And you thought the world had seen the last of your thesis, Janus, once it was handed in.


Clef

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 386
E
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
E
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 386
Thanks from me, three, Janus. Very nice post.

Erus #1280373 10/04/09 06:47 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,676
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,676
I read about this too. To me it seemed that since Sussmayr wrote alot himself too (from his own requiem copied, I read), he must have been a very gifted composer himself? For instance I wouldn't want Lacrimosa in any other way, to me it sounds perfect.


Currently working on: Perfecting the Op 2/1, studying the 27/2 last movement. Chopin Nocturne 32/2 and Posth. C#m, 'Raindrop' prelude and Etude 10/9
Repetoire: Beethoven op 2/1, 10/1(1st, 2nd), 13, 14/1, 27/1(1st, 2nd), 27/2, 28(1st, 2nd), 31/2(1st, 3rd), 49/1, 49/2, 78(1st), 79, 90, 101(1st)
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,799
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,799
I found it quite upsetting to find out in this thread how much of this piece is not by Mozart. It seems like somewhere between 10 and 25% is basically original Sussmeyer. Before reading this thread I just thought some parts had been 'finished' by another composer. It seems like the piece should be listed as composed by Mozart/Sussmeyer.

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,218
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,218
"It seems like the piece should be listed as composed by Mozart/Sussmeyer."

"...it's because Constanze wanted to present the work as one completely by Mozart (to get all the money agreed to in the commission)."


It's probably about as true in 2009 as it was in 1791. I'd like to think times are changing, but there's a lot of evidence that points the other way.


Clef


Moderated by  Brendan, platuser 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
Piano World Has Been Sold!
--------------------
Forums RULES, Terms of Service & HELP
(updated 06/06/2022)
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
(ad)
(ad)
New Topics - Multiple Forums
How Much to Sell For?
by TexasMom1 - 04/15/24 10:23 PM
Song lyrics have become simpler and more repetitive
by FrankCox - 04/15/24 07:42 PM
New bass strings sound tubby
by Emery Wang - 04/15/24 06:54 PM
Pianodisc PDS-128+ calibration
by Dalem01 - 04/15/24 04:50 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics223,384
Posts3,349,159
Members111,630
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010

Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations |

Advertise on Piano World
| Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map


Copyright © VerticalScope Inc. All Rights Reserved.
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community.