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Re: I know how mistakes happen! [Re: keyboardklutz] #1279870
10/03/09 08:55 AM
10/03/09 08:55 AM
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TimR Offline
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Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
What I am saying is, after the problem is corrected, the student is still left with the feeling there is a problem (though for the non-conscious it is knowledge)


kbk,

Your theory may very well apply to some mistakes. I suspect you're missing a larger problem.

You seem to have assumed a priori that there is a reason for a mistake, and you are searching for the subconscious or unconscious mechanism. It may be a devious freudian reason, or a simple misassignment as you're suggesting here.

I think many errors have no cause. They are simple noise in the system, completely random.

This is of course good for other reasons, but frustrating during learning.


gotta go practice
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Re: I know how mistakes happen! [Re: TimR] #1279872
10/03/09 08:59 AM
10/03/09 08:59 AM
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Tim, that's why I suggested the original mistake could be 'innocent' (though being part Freudian I wouldn't put money on it). Also why I said '...well some anyway.'

I love 'Noise in the system' it's nearly elegant enough to unFreud me!


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: I know how mistakes happen! [Re: keystring] #1279876
10/03/09 09:05 AM
10/03/09 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring

The second, which was a shocker for me, goes to what you are saying Morodiene: that we may take for granted that we know something, but we don't.
I believe it was Socrates who said he knew nothing.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: I know how mistakes happen! [Re: keyboardklutz] #1279904
10/03/09 10:15 AM
10/03/09 10:15 AM
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Well, I am learning a piece right now that has about 3 measures that I play right sometimes but not always. First off I know it is partly my approach. The lh is playng octaves, not the easiest thing for me to do. So I have approached this spot with anxiety. After reading Nirye.... post I am going to go back and really try to learn these measures. I am a pretty good sight-reader and I realized that I have not gone through this section and I have not consciously looked at the intervals and notes. I am practicing at a slow tempo, gradually increasing the tempo and hoping that when I get up to tempo I will still be able to play correctly. Now I have a different way to practice and hopefully feel more confident and lose the anxiety for this spot in the music.

Re: I know how mistakes happen! [Re: abcdefg] #1279907
10/03/09 10:24 AM
10/03/09 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by abcdefg
Well, I am learning a piece right now that has about 3 measures that I play right sometimes but not always. First off I know it is partly my approach. The lh is playng octaves, not the easiest thing for me to do. So I have approached this spot with anxiety. After reading Nirye.... post I am going to go back and really try to learn these measures. I am a pretty good sight-reader and I realized that I have not gone through this section and I have not consciously looked at the intervals and notes. I am practicing at a slow tempo, gradually increasing the tempo and hoping that when I get up to tempo I will still be able to play correctly. Now I have a different way to practice and hopefully feel more confident and lose the anxiety for this spot in the music.

Yes, I can relate to this post. I believe it's the anxiety that causes tension, which in turn leads to practicing our mistakes.
So we have to lose the anxiety by practicing in the zone, in complete relaxation, in those passages where mistakes have occurred previously.


Piano Teacher
Re: I know how mistakes happen! [Re: Barb860] #1279932
10/03/09 11:01 AM
10/03/09 11:01 AM
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Though I hate applying scientific principles to music, I believe this subject would be served well by it.

There are two main sections of the brain that handle the process of learning a piece and developing it to the point of perfection (or something close to it). The 'thinking' section (neo-cortex), and the 'instinctual' section (lymbyc). The 'thinking' section is in charge of all conscious thoughts and efforts, which we use to process anything new to our minds, like the first time you had to tie your shoes, or brush your teeth, or ride a bike, or learn a new piece.

As we do something over and over again the brain shifts these tasks over to the lymbyc brain, which is a purely instinctual, unconscious part of the brain. This is where our body language, reflexes, emotions and instincts reside, things that we just do without thinking, like brushing your teeth, riding a bike, etc. This explains why if you play a new piece enough times, you begin playing it without thinking. Some people call this muscle memory. If you learn a piece with mistakes included, the lymbyc brain thinks these 'mistakes' are correct. So the only way to fix them is to re-employ the neo-cortex for these sections. You have to isolate the mistakes, and practice them repeatedly with conscious and deliberate attention until the correct rendition gets transfered back to the lymbyc side, and wah-lah, fixed.

Interesting side note: this also explains why you have to truly 'know' a piece before you can inject true emotion into it, because the process has to be controlled by the lymbyc side, due to the fact that emotion comes from the lymbyc side.

In short, think when you need to learn and fix, don't think when it's time to truly play.

Re: I know how mistakes happen! [Re: Joe H.] #1279942
10/03/09 11:10 AM
10/03/09 11:10 AM
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Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
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Originally Posted by Joe H.
You have to isolate the mistakes, and practice them repeatedly with conscious and deliberate attention until the correct rendition gets transfered back to the lymbyc side, and wah-lah, fixed.

What's "wah-lah"?

Steven

Re: I know how mistakes happen! [Re: sotto voce] #1279943
10/03/09 11:17 AM
10/03/09 11:17 AM
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Canada
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Quote
What's "wah-lah"?

VoilĂ 

Re: I know how mistakes happen! [Re: sotto voce] #1279944
10/03/09 11:17 AM
10/03/09 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by sotto voce
Originally Posted by Joe H.
You have to isolate the mistakes, and practice them repeatedly with conscious and deliberate attention until the correct rendition gets transfered back to the lymbyc side, and wah-lah, fixed.

What's "wah-lah"?

Steven


Lake Wobagon-ese for voilĂ .

Re: I know how mistakes happen! [Re: Joe H.] #1279953
10/03/09 11:45 AM
10/03/09 11:45 AM
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London, UK (though if it's Aug...
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Originally Posted by Joe H.
You have to isolate the mistakes, and practice them repeatedly with conscious and deliberate attention until the correct rendition gets transfered back to the lymbyc side, and wah-lah, fixed.
A little simplistic. The limbic brain is not like a whiteboard, you can't just wipe stuff off and replace it with other stuff. Love the wah-lah though.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: I know how mistakes happen! [Re: keyboardklutz] #1279956
10/03/09 11:48 AM
10/03/09 11:48 AM
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Seattle area, WA
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Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
Agreed. I'm talking about practice mistakes when learning. Ideally we learn everything 100% correct. Stuff does creep in though and I'm giving one rationale for some of them. I suppose you need to have had the 'fixed a mistake only to have it move a beat or two away' experience.


Ignoring the argument...

I had exactly this problem in the Bach D minor concerto. I fixed the error with hundreds of repetitions but then it moved forward a measure. I think the problem may be due to anticipation of the troubling passage and than relief that we got through it causing a loss of focus.


Best regards,

Deborah
Re: I know how mistakes happen! [Re: Barb860] #1279959
10/03/09 11:51 AM
10/03/09 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Barb860

Yes, I can relate to this post. I believe it's the anxiety that causes tension, which in turn leads to practicing our mistakes.
So we have to lose the anxiety by practicing in the zone, in complete relaxation, in those passages where mistakes have occurred previously.
Yes, but the point is it's the non-conscious looking for a mistake that's no longer there that causes it anxiety - correcting any old thing assuages that.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: I know how mistakes happen! [Re: gooddog] #1279961
10/03/09 11:55 AM
10/03/09 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by gooddog


Ignoring the argument...

I had exactly this problem in the Bach D minor concerto. I fixed the error with hundreds of repetitions but then it moved forward a measure. I think the problem may be due to anticipation of the troubling passage and than relief that we got through it causing a loss of focus.
Close, but wrong (I don't think the non-conscious loses focus). Exactly what I am explaining - you had programmed your non-conscious to fix a mistake, so it fixed a mistake (even though there wasn't one any more).


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: I know how mistakes happen! [Re: Nyiregyhazi] #1279966
10/03/09 12:03 PM
10/03/09 12:03 PM
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Posts: 2,791
Ann Arbor, MI
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Originally Posted by Nyiregyhazi

The only assured way to get to that stage is through the conscious thought-processes. It's just a matter of going slowly enough that you don't have to choose between between one thing or the other, in order to set the right habits.

Along those lines, a useful piece of advice I found in a book: "Hesitate rather than err." In learning a piece be sure to play so slowly that your brain is always directing your fingers to the right notes. If ever there is doubt, hesitate, figure out the right note and then play it. Any time you play a wrong note you are imprinting your inner computer with that error.


"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP
Re: I know how mistakes happen! [Re: jazzyprof] #1279969
10/03/09 12:05 PM
10/03/09 12:05 PM
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London, UK (though if it's Aug...
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Prof that's great, but nothing to do with this thread. It's about how mistakes happen not how to prevent them.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: I know how mistakes happen! [Re: keyboardklutz] #1279982
10/03/09 12:35 PM
10/03/09 12:35 PM
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Mistakes occur because we send either incorrect or incomplete messages from the eye to the brain to the hand.

Correcting mistakes requires giving our brains the correct, complete information and then rehearsing the correct thought/action.


B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed.
M.M., Piano
Re: I know how mistakes happen! [Re: Minniemay] #1279983
10/03/09 12:40 PM
10/03/09 12:40 PM
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But who is that we?


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: I know how mistakes happen! [Re: keyboardklutz] #1279987
10/03/09 12:49 PM
10/03/09 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
Close, but wrong (I don't think the non-conscious loses focus).


That might just be your problem, kbk: You are thinking / not thinking and letting the mini-you bandwidth of your conscious mind confabulate to its heart's, er, to it's mind's content rather than listening to your heart, your tummy, your intuition, the wisdom of your un/sub/nonconscious you...

To much thinking and too little experiencing?

Re: I know how mistakes happen! [Re: theJourney] #1279990
10/03/09 12:52 PM
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You mean maybe I don't get out enough?


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: I know how mistakes happen! [Re: Joe H.] #1279998
10/03/09 12:59 PM
10/03/09 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe H.
Though I hate applying scientific principles to music, I believe this subject would be served well by it.

There are two main sections of the brain that handle the process of learning a piece and developing it to the point of perfection (or something close to it). The 'thinking' section (neo-cortex), and the 'instinctual' section (lymbyc). The 'thinking' section is in charge of all conscious thoughts and efforts, which we use to process anything new to our minds, like the first time you had to tie your shoes, or brush your teeth, or ride a bike, or learn a new piece.

As we do something over and over again the brain shifts these tasks over to the lymbyc brain, which is a purely instinctual, unconscious part of the brain. This is where our body language, reflexes, emotions and instincts reside, things that we just do without thinking, like brushing your teeth, riding a bike, etc. This explains why if you play a new piece enough times, you begin playing it without thinking. Some people call this muscle memory. If you learn a piece with mistakes included, the lymbyc brain thinks these 'mistakes' are correct. So the only way to fix them is to re-employ the neo-cortex for these sections. You have to isolate the mistakes, and practice them repeatedly with conscious and deliberate attention until the correct rendition gets transfered back to the lymbyc side, and wah-lah, fixed.

Interesting side note: this also explains why you have to truly 'know' a piece before you can inject true emotion into it, because the process has to be controlled by the lymbyc side, due to the fact that emotion comes from the lymbyc side.

In short, think when you need to learn and fix, don't think when it's time to truly play.


This sounds like discussion of "self 1 and self 2" in Barry Green's "Inner Game of Music", the right and left brain thing?


Piano Teacher
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