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Re: EBVT in action [Re: UnrightTooner] #1242920
08/03/09 09:11 PM
08/03/09 09:11 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,016
Madison, WI USA
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Bill Bremmer RPT Offline OP
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Madison, WI USA
In my reading of the complete text as quoted, it could be taken to mean that 2 cents, spread out over 5 octaves is the most error anyone ever makes. That's too much! Buy a Stroboconn! I'll be notifying the moderator of the intent to deceive by William Braide White! From the exams I've scored where people used the BW method, it was more like 2 cents on nearly every pitch!

Where are the practical checks for the estimate, the estimate upon the estimate and the estimate upon the estimate upon the estimate? What do you do when the whole house of cards collapses upon itself?

What about Sebastian Bach inventing ET and tuning his Clavinova with it so his students could play in all keys? I'll be notifying the moderator about that too!


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
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Re: EBVT in action [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT] #1242951
08/03/09 09:57 PM
08/03/09 09:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
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Gadzar  Offline
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Mexico City
Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer
If you own Braide-White's book, read it for a good laugh, then sell it to some sucker good and cheap. It is thoroughly useless, incomplete, incorrect and obsolete.


I don't want to read BW's book for a laugh. It is 1000 times more fun to read your posts about using strobocons, pipe organs and accordions to tune pianos or Bach inventing ET to have his students play in all keys.

And I see that I am not the only one to be wondered by this thread.

Hey guys! Have you noted that at this moment this topic has a count of 1,243 views and is only surpassed by another topic on tuning systems? (and of course "O.T. paging Jerry Groot", and "Behavior in this forum")

Congratulations Bill! thumb

Last edited by Gadzar; 08/03/09 10:05 PM.

Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: EBVT in action [Re: Gadzar] #1243040
08/04/09 12:49 AM
08/04/09 12:49 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,722
PA
daniokeeper Offline
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Hi Rafael,

I just checked my copy of Tuning...By Ear by Mr. Jorgensen. I have copy number 848 of "A Limited Edition of 2,000" from 1977. I think I bought it in 78. The cover in brown with gold type and it has 435 pages.

Hi Bill,

I understand that tuning theory wasn't as advanced then as it is today. But, what was available to the student in the old days? Dr. White collected the information that was available, expanded upon it, and presented it in books, taught it in his school, apparently developed player piano actions, and on and on. He was a shining light of his time. And, a quick search of "William Braid White" at Google will show that he is still cited today.

I remember reading PT&TAA when I was a student, and yes, tapping out beat rates (with my finger) to try to 'get them into my ear'. It's just what we had to do then. I'm still grateful I had access to his book. Although I do have tremendous respect for your great knowledge of modern methods and theory, and I understand that we need to keep up or be left behind, I hope you'll appreciate that nothing will shake my admiration for William Braid White.

I hope this doesn't cause a problem for someone, but while searching WBW, i came across a web-site that is offering free downloads of PT&TAA in .pdf format:

http://members.shaw.ca/paud122/Miscellaneous.htm

Last edited by daniokeeper; 08/04/09 01:00 AM.

Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
(semi-retired)
Re: EBVT in action [Re: Gadzar] #1243046
08/04/09 01:02 AM
08/04/09 01:02 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,016
Madison, WI USA
B
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,016
Madison, WI USA
It's that "Behavior in this forum" that needs to go and with an apology for engaging in the very behavior he says he doesn't want. Where is the opportunity to respond to it publicly? Is that opportunity locked out because that person knows that the "complaints" received are from a very few individuals who feel somehow threatened by the strength of organization and solid credentials held by proof of knowledge and skills?

What about the behavior of one individual who constantly tries to deceive unsuspecting people into believing that an obsolete book on tuning, replete with bad grammar and punctuation, which gives information that is incorrect and contradictory is a better way to learn how to tune a piano than the more modern methods? What about a person who consistently claims that a proven method of accuracy is inaccurate? What about a person who consistently claims that inharmonicity has no effect on tuning beat rates? Is that not outright deception, an attempt to show that his way of tuning, in spite of all evidence and records to the contrary, is the best? Is that not self promotion?

What about a person who has no public record or credentials as a professional piano technician who can only claim solid belief in a thoroughly obsolete and disproven system, who spouts mathematics which few if any can comprehend as proof? What about a person who scoffs at and denounces a technique or method, saying that it is imperfect but before he even has time to read all of it, let alone implement it, invents a method of his own which he claims to be perfect but never tells anyone what it is?

What about a person who posts a new thread which is a direct insult to another participant in order to show "errors" but can not and does not yield any at all? What about a person, again with no credentials who advocates a technique never before heard of or even mentioned in any piano tuning publication whatsoever as being the ultimate and most accurate (chromatic minor 6ths). What about a person who says a proven and now commonly used technique(4:5 ratio of CM3s)is crude and inaccurate but instead offers techniques which are far more difficult to verify and effect such as 7:8 and 15:16 ratios and claims that only these are accurate and useful? What about a person who consistently hijacks topics to put forth his own opinion, an opinion found in only one source? Does that not sound something like fanatical fundamentalism? "They spoke in tongues and took up serpents" and therefore everything forward is based upon that and that alone. There are no other truths, there are no other possibilities. They denounced those who did not believe in their ways as infidels and who would be damned.

Shouldn't such a person be permanently banned? Actually, he shouldn't. His views should be seen by others for what they are and measured against the views of others for what they are. He has the right to speak in his tongues which no one understands (meaningless gibberish) and to take up his serpents, be bitten by them and to seek the first aid for the foolish act, outside of his own beliefs but which is common sense to anyone else. He'll only seek to prove once again, all over again that to speak gibberish and to take up the serpent is the one and only one right way.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: EBVT in action [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT] #1243052
08/04/09 01:21 AM
08/04/09 01:21 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,016
Madison, WI USA
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Bill Bremmer RPT Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2002
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Madison, WI USA
Hello Joe, yes the Braide-White publication was the standard of its time, even as it edged out the competition from Oliver C. Faust who could well have been seen to have a superior method. Doesn't that sound a bit like VHS vs. Beta and Microsoft vs. Apple? Of course, I am keeping my copy of Piano Tuning and Allied Arts but not so that I can teach the method to anyone. I'm keeping my Helmholtz book too. I have another book from Braide-White's time by Cree Fisher. I also have Let's Tune Up by John Travis and some other books as well. I wouldn't throw any of them away or sell any of them but as a tuning instructor to those who most want to learn what they need to know today as an aural tuner, I would not use any of those methods at all.

Yes, Owen Jorgensen learned first from Braide-White and he included BW's methods among the many flawed methods for attempting ET that there were in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries. Obviously however, Jorgensen grew in his knowledge far beyond what he had first learned. He went back as far as tuning history went, dug up buried and suppressed material and went ahead to embrace modern methodology and is still teaching the most advanced techniques there are today through his writing and communication with actively progressing piano technicians. Anyone would do well to read his latest article in the August 2009 issue of the PTG Journal and to research any previous PTG Journal articles he has published.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: EBVT in action [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT] #1243131
08/04/09 08:28 AM
08/04/09 08:28 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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Grand Rapids Michigan
Most of us see this particular poster Bill for who he is which is why most of us have stopped most forms of discussion with that person. It is useless. I like the points you make above though. They are good ones.

As you have stated, the Strobe, at that time, was thought to be fantastic. That is, until a tuner with a good ear heard the outcome and said, no way, it sounds bad. Since then, computers and technology have advanced to the point that made the strobe totally and completely obsolete. The same goes for books written with what technology or theory that was available at that time. Since then, books like Owen Jorgensen's have surpassed that comprehension with his own personal studies and practice coming up with various different methods along with perhaps easier ways of tuning with a much better understanding of cause and effect.



Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
Re: EBVT in action [Re: Jerry Groot RPT] #1243175
08/04/09 10:26 AM
08/04/09 10:26 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,016
Madison, WI USA
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Bill Bremmer RPT Offline OP
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Thanks Jer, As someone pointed out to me several months ago, if Braide White were still alive today and issuing new editions, I have little doubt his book would contain the modern ideas we know today such as CM3s, incorporating inharmonicity into tuning, the use and programming of modern ETD's and the correction of the confusion of ET vs. WT terms. Instead of telling us we need to count beat rates of 9.5, 10.5, 13.5, etc. on a table against a grandfather clock with a pair of drumsticks, there would be a more practical method of utilizing interval checks. Certainly, we would not be told to learn to perceive beats by listening first to a reed organ or an accordion!

By now, I'll bet that he would even embrace the concept of non equal temperaments such as John Travis (Let's Tune Up) did before his death. Travis' book had many of the same faults in it as did BW's. Neither seemed to realize just how much inharmonicity there really is in piano strings or how much effect it has on tuning. Travis believed that if you started the temperament on a black key such as C# rather than C, the temperament would end up being "more equal" (sic). Travis actually said in his book that "Bach invented ET and tuned his own piano in it".

These kind of fallacies would have come to light and both would have benefited from editors who could have cleaned up the writing considerably. The charts of theoretical beat rates would still be there and should be but only as a frame of reference the way they are in Jorgensen's book.

The real point about using BW's book today for a novice to study piano tuning is in fact, that it is obsolete. With generations of piano technicians having used it and to a very large percentage, all producing the same kind of identifiable errors from it, it points directly to a serious problem in the method itself. That is why virtually none of the modern methods there are come even close to resembling it. Furthermore, having our fathers, grandfathers and great grandfathers live their whole lives believing such nonsense as "Bach invented ET..." and not even being aware of any other possibility and then having a completely rejectionist attitude about any and all other concepts, all the while producing their own backwards version of what they don't believe in, is reason enough to direct today's novice elsewhere first.

After all, are there any practitioners of psychology or psychiatry who firmly believe in and only practice what Freud taught? Are there medical doctors who treat every ailment with leeches and a shot of brandy? Are there auto mechanics who only refer to the manual for the model T Ford? On the latter, I know that in the past, a good auto mechanic could diagnose a problem just by listening to the engine run. Many may still be able to do that and may have an opinion about what the trouble is but they all now hook up their electronic diagnostic system to the car's internal computer. Physicians can diagnose my sight, smell and touch but they still run blood tests and MRI's. They all use modern technology and have ancient books merely as a point of reference for how far technology today has come.

To start a novice aural tuner today with BW's book is to mislead and misguide them. It is the easiest way to produce a generation of tuners who know nothing at all about tuning but rely solely and exclusively on ETD's.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: EBVT in action [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT] #1243252
08/04/09 12:27 PM
08/04/09 12:27 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,419
Oakland
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BDB Offline
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I am confused. If one cannot use Braid White as a basis for setting the temperament because it is obsolete, why can one use Marpurg, who died a century before Braid White wrote his book?

Braid White describes a method of tuning. I do not feel it is particularly efficient. However, there is no reason one could not set equal temperament correctly using his method. It would just be difficult to do so.


Semipro Tech
Re: EBVT in action [Re: BDB] #1243494
08/04/09 05:06 PM
08/04/09 05:06 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,016
Madison, WI USA
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Bill Bremmer RPT Offline OP
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The quasi equal temperament which is commonly called "Marpurg" is one that Marpurg himself wouldn't have recognized. In Owen Jorgensen's second publication, The Handbook for Tuning the Equal Beating Temperaments, there is a temperament scheme with the title, Marpurg-Neidhardt Composite Quasi Equal Temperament. Since the two named people lived at different times, the idea is simply a composite or combination of what both individuals practiced. Marpurg did however have several schemes but all were quasi equal temperaments. None of them would be accepted as ET today. Neidhardt also had some very mild temperaments. Indeed, Owen Jorgensen told me that the EBVT III very closely resembles one of his ideas that can be found in the book by Murry Barbour.

The temperament in Owen's book is between C3 and C4. The contiguous M3s, C3-E3, E3-G#3 and G#3-C4 are truly equal beating rather than at a 4:5 ratio. From C3, E3 and G#3, pure 4ths and 5ths are tuned. The remaining notes, D3, F#3 and A#3 are placed equal beating between 4ths and 5ths that correspond to them. It is relatively easy to tune and replicate very precisely. The hardest part is fitting E3 and G#3 between C3 and C4 so that the three CM3s all beat exactly the same. Then there are six pure 4ths and 5ths (very easy to do and precisely replicate) and the three remaining intervals are tuned so that one interval beats exactly the same as another; no counting, just listening until both intervals have the same, tempered sound.

It is far easier to get the above consistently correct than it is a true ET. There is no guessing except at the very beginning, a little estimating and trial until the three CM3s are exactly right. After that, you don't have to guess whether an interval is pure or not; it either is or it isn't. You can use the checks there are for pure 4ths and 5ths but if you just make a 4th or 5th nice and still, the checks will merely confirm that so they are hardly necessary. You can't be wrong by more than 1/2 cent and no know it. The same goes for the three remaining equal beating intervals; they either beat equally or one is faster than the other. You also can't be wrong by more than 1/2 cent and not know it.

As an aside, that is why I purposefully chose the equal beating path and method for developing a Victorian style well temperament. First, so I, myself could replicate what I want to within a very narrow margin and then secondly, so others could too if they choose. It is still somewhat of a disappointment to me that so many want to use the electronic figures rather than good old aural tuning techniques.

Now, there is another version of the Marpurg-Neidhardt Composite Quasi Equal temperament which is most often practiced and is simply called "Marpurg" for short, even though Marpurg himself certainly never tuned it. The temperament octave is transposed to F3-F4 and it is tuned from an A pitch source rather than C. The CM3s are made to have a 4:5 ratio instead of equal beating. All the rest is analogous. After the CM3s are tuned, the rest is quite easy to effect and very replicable and does not really require any checking although the checks for 4ths and 5ths may certainly be used.

The "Marpurg" temperament is often used as a close but not quite identical cousin to true ET. For those who use it as I occasionally do, it is believed that the pure 4ths and 5ths plus many other equal beating and proportionate beating intervals actually yield a more in tune and pleasing sound than true ET does. The tempered 4ths and 5ths are tempered twice as much as in true ET, so when played alone by someone used to true ET, they sound incorrect. However, when played in a true musical context, those "imperfections" are lost but a more harmonious sound is found. There is no cycle of 5ths "color" in this temperament, however; just a slightly more pleasing consonance to all keys over true ET. This version might most properly be called the Marpurg-Neidhardt-Faust Composite Quasi Equal Temperament because it was Oliver C. Faust, a contemporary of William Braide-White who first utilized the 4:5 CM3s in his book on tuning.

The idea for the "ET via Marpurg" came to me one day when I was tuning the "Marpurg" temperament. I wondered to myself, "What if I resolved the pure 4ths and 5ths there are in the Marpurg the same way that the three notes, G3,B3 and D#4 are resolved, by making then equal beating with corresponding 4ths or 5ths?" Just on a whim, I tried it and to my amazement, the result was an apparently perfect ET!

I immediately wrote to Owen Jorgensen about it and he congratulated me on what he characterized as a "very clever idea". The fly in the ointment, of course is that 4ths and 5ths in true ET are NOT equal beating, not quite. However, when Jorgensen analyzed the idea mathematically, he revealed that there was no single pitch off of true ET by even one cent. The closest to that is D#4 which would be 0.78 cents flat. The F3, A3, C#4 and F4 are exactly the same, of course. A few are about 1/2 cent off and others just a tiny fraction.

While this is somewhat of a disappointment, I still quickly realized the value in the scheme. It could serve to very quickly, without using any checks, bring a very out of tune piano to near perfection. That would be useful in a pitch change and yes, to bring a piano which is de-tuned for a PTG Tuning Exam to a nearly perfect temperament quickly, easily and predictably without any guesswork.

I decided I must give this idea a try with the students I work with who can tune with an ETD but whose aural tuning skills are lacking or even non-existent. I already knew that even these people could hear and tune pure intervals quite well. I also knew they could perceive and tune two intervals so the beat exactly the same without "counting" beats, only working until both intervals beat exactly the same.

I used to use those techniques when teaching ET. Get the 4th or 5th pure first, then temper it and check with another interval to see if it works. It had worked for CM3s too. Get both M3s beating equally, then sharpen the top note slightly and compare again. It works for other combinations such as as M3-M6 where the difference between the two is very slight. When any interval is pure or any two intervals as equal beating, it is not correct in ET but at least one knows where one is and how far one has to go. That was always the strategy and it worked and worked well.

Now, the ET via Marpurg idea has proven to be all the more successful. On the first attempt, all the way through the sequence with only one estimate and no checks whatsoever, the lowest any of my students ever scored was a 90. Others had 93's 95's 98's and one was a perfect score of 100. You can imagine how thrilled these students were to actually do this! Moreover, they all could spot and correct the errors that there were on there own. They had already learned through the process how to identify and correct errors by comparing one interval with others that are related to it. It was apparent that teaching such relationships as a task in itself was not required. They learned it through the process.

It was literally, "Come in knowing nothing, go out knowing how to tune a perfect ET in just 90 minutes". Of course, any who learned the technique will have to practice it an memorize the sequence. You can't be a master of anything by attending one class. However, there is good evidence that the idea can and does build a very firm foundation very quickly.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: EBVT in action [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT] #1245177
08/07/09 01:27 AM
08/07/09 01:27 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
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Gadzar  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Bill,

I've often heard that tunings in Well Temperaments last less time than in E.T.

Not that with ET you could get a better stability in setting the tuning pins and rendering the strings, but by the fact that all the intervals in ET are tempered, i.e. already a "little out of tune". And thus a little shifting is less noticeable.

"Au contraire", in WT's there are intervals more harmonious or equal beating, as in EBVT III, which can be destroyed by little shifting.

What do you think about stability in EBVT III, in comparison to E.T.?



Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: EBVT in action [Re: Gadzar] #1245245
08/07/09 08:11 AM
08/07/09 08:11 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,016
Madison, WI USA
B
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline OP
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Bill Bremmer RPT  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,016
Madison, WI USA
Rafael, I have heard that before too. It is only a hypothesis. In my experience, the very opposite is true. Just as imperfection in a WT does not keep it from being a WT, a little drift in stability of a WT is less noticeable than it is in ET. Neither one is a major consideration, however. When the piano goes out of tune, it goes out of tune. The above hypothesis should not be a reason to choose ET over a WT and the reverse is true as well.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: EBVT in action [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT] #1276924
09/28/09 09:40 PM
09/28/09 09:40 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,205
Jakobstad, Finland
pppat Offline
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pppat  Offline
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Jakobstad, Finland
Bill,

like I told you once before I came up to the exact "ET via Marpburg" that you did, the only way I could decently get the teperament set.

I saw some web pages of how a harpsicord tuner tetrasected a fifths by first tuning the surrounding 5ths beatless from a given 3rd (which could be of any preferred size that the temperament demamded). Then I borrowed the Potter contagious 3rds and combined those to methods. I thought my method was very "home-made" and you can imagine my surprise when I two months later saw that you had already put it into system, it really gave me a boost of confidence that was highly needed at that point!

Anyways, now im really into your EBVT and mindless octaves. What happens when you have set the temperament, how do you step down until the two octaves / 12ths can take you further? Do you go by octave tuning with some checks, or do you have a different approach? Same for the first notes going up from the temperament. Octave tuning + useful checks? If so, would you mind giving an example?

Regards,
Patrick


Patrick Wingren, RPT
Wingren Pianistik
https://facebook.com/wingrenpianistik
Concert Tuner at Schauman Hall, Jakobstad, Finland
Musician, arranger, composer

- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
Re: EBVT in action [Re: pppat] #1277497
09/29/09 06:01 PM
09/29/09 06:01 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,205
Jakobstad, Finland
pppat Offline
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pppat  Offline
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Posts: 1,205
Jakobstad, Finland
Must have been really tired when I wrote the post above smile A lot of typos, and then some errors, too.

I meant tetrasected a major third.

The interesting web page that got me going was written by Bradley Lehman some years ago, and can be found here:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bpl/larips/tetrasect.html

So, to place a tempered fifth exactly in between a major third, you go about it as when making a paper airplane. The same idea as you (Bill) use in your ET via Marpurg, with the slight difference that he doesn´t use equal beating but instead relies on the relationship of 2:3 for the fifths|forths.

I combined this with the Potter temperament that estimates the contiguous 3rds F3-A3-C#3-F4, and started practicing. If you use the relationship of 2:3 you should, theoretically, end up with a perfect ET (please correct me if I'm wrong). And indeed, after months of fighting with "make the fifths sligtly narrow", i could tune ET.

However, I was embarassed using this, as all the other tuners I learned from advocated the temperaments based on estimating 4ths and 5ths. Only months later, I found your "ET via Marpurg" pdf-file, and relaxed considerably wink

BTW, I wrote a post about this a little over a year ago, it can be viewed here:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...rd%20compromises%20on%20.html#Post626956

Regards,
Patrick

Last edited by pppat; 09/29/09 06:24 PM.

Patrick Wingren, RPT
Wingren Pianistik
https://facebook.com/wingrenpianistik
Concert Tuner at Schauman Hall, Jakobstad, Finland
Musician, arranger, composer

- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
Re: EBVT in action [Re: pppat] #1277833
09/30/09 09:53 AM
09/30/09 09:53 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,945
Bradford County, PA
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Patrick:

You seem to be a critical thinker, so I think you will understand what I am about to say without being offended.

It bothers me that there is a double standard in regards to tuning with CM3s verses with 4ths and 5ths. The fact that iH changes the frequencies of partials is used as an argument that beat rates are different than theoretical, but is ignored when considering beat rate ratios. Is the beat rate of 4ths to fifths really 3:2? And is the ratio of CM3s really fixed?


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: EBVT in action [Re: UnrightTooner] #1278011
09/30/09 02:06 PM
09/30/09 02:06 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,205
Jakobstad, Finland
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member
pppat  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,205
Jakobstad, Finland
Jeff: No offense taken smile

This is my humble empiric analyze:

1) on some pianos the 3:2 works really well. read: on bigger grands.

2) the smaller the piano, the bigger the inconsistency in what beat ratios between the 4ths and 5ths allow you come out with at least something resembling ET smile

3) this is why, lately, I´ve tried to intersect the 4th/5th pair where it sounds balanced, not by counting. This has given me a better result, and is also why I stated the 3:2 as a theoretically ideal relationship above - hunting for that might not necessarily be the best practical choice in all situations.

Jeff, you reasoning sounds logical. If the CM3 beat rates are affected by iH, so are the ratios. They are part of the same plain math.


Patrick Wingren, RPT
Wingren Pianistik
https://facebook.com/wingrenpianistik
Concert Tuner at Schauman Hall, Jakobstad, Finland
Musician, arranger, composer

- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
Re: EBVT in action [Re: pppat] #1278276
09/30/09 10:34 PM
09/30/09 10:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 119
Lansing, MI
B
b3groover Offline
Full Member
b3groover  Offline
Full Member
B

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 119
Lansing, MI
This has been a fascinating thread. Bill, I am on my way to Madison this Friday to play a show and then to Minneapolis on Saturday for another. I wish I had time to take a lesson from you. I hope to do so in the near future. Thank you for making your teachings so readily available.

To say that inharmonicity does not affect the beats is missing the point. They may or may not affect the beats (I think it depends on what interval and what frequency the inharmonicity of that particular set of intervals happens to be... it can certainly confuse matters). But they definitely affect how the piano and the temperament sounds.

And for a relative newbie like myself, that can lead to confusion and lack of confidence. "Well, I'm pretty sure I'm counting 6.9 beats (or whatever), but man this temperament sounds like crap!" Why doesn't it work? What am I doing wrong?

I've been enjoying the EVBT profile in Tune-Lab. It has helped my ear immensely.


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jim Alfredson
Musician / Tuner
www.organissimo.org
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