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Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: Jerry Groot RPT] #1277311
09/29/09 12:12 PM
09/29/09 12:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 306
Manchester, England, UK.
jpscoey Offline
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jpscoey  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 306
Manchester, England, UK.
Originally Posted by Jerry Groot RPT
Not to try and create an even bigger problem here but, BDB is a widely respected tech in the forum John. He knows his stuff. Gets to the point, says it and moves on.


I appreciate your point Jerry - but the issue here is that BDB has contributed to this thread,

and commented about all the things that are "wrong", without explaining an alternative.
.



John Schofield. NTC Dip. , C.G.L.I.
Professional piano tuner/technician since 1982.
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Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: jpscoey] #1277329
09/29/09 12:32 PM
09/29/09 12:32 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,023
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline
6000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,023
Bradford County, PA
John:

BDB did explain an alternative. I agree with him that the less done with working dampers the better. Besides, on many pianos the string with the least false beats is the right one in the treble. (I have wondered why...) If the piano is not strip muted, it leaves me the choice as to which string to tune first, and even which string an octave below to tune to.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: UnrightTooner] #1277757
09/30/09 05:05 AM
09/30/09 05:05 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 467
Münster, Germany
G
Gregor Offline
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Gregor  Offline
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G

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 467
Münster, Germany
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Besides, on many pianos the string with the least false beats is the right one in the treble. (I have wondered why...)


Good question. I noticed that too but I also have no idea why.

I never use a strip for tuning. When I used to be an aural tuner I used a strip for the temperament section. Now with an ETD I use only single rubber mutes in the bass and tenor and the papp mutes for the treble section. For pitch raise I start with A0 and go upwards, tuning the unisons as I go. The same I do for fine tuning. Both together takes me between 60 and 75 minutes.

Gregor


piano tech - tuner - dealer
Münster, Germany
www.weldert.de
Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: Gregor] #1277768
09/30/09 05:46 AM
09/30/09 05:46 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,205
Jakobstad, Finland
pppat Offline
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pppat  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,205
Jakobstad, Finland
Jeff, BDB: I take it that you prefer wedge mutes to strip mutes.

If, on the other hand, one wants to go with stripmuting the whole vertical, there are the two alternatives of either placing the strip-mute behind the dampers or to use Johns method of removing/releasing the action and use a strip-mute below.

I myself, with my far-from-brilliant muting skills, wink think that Johns method is less invasive, so to speak. You have to be really good at what you do to mute behind the dampers and not hurt them, and the release of the muting strip is quite risky too.

Again, that's for me. I bet Jerry, Bill and the others muting behind the dampers all the time have developed the necessary skills to do that brilliantly.

So I'll go with Johns method for now. I don't think it's fair to discourage removing/releasing of the action, that is quite an everyday operation of piano maintenance, anyways. Of course, the safest would be to not remove the fallboard or even open the piano lid, just like the best way to be safe in traffic would be to stay indoors all your life wink

Last edited by pppat; 09/30/09 05:50 AM.

Patrick Wingren, RPT
Wingren Pianistik
https://facebook.com/wingrenpianistik
Concert Tuner at Schauman Hall, Jakobstad, Finland
Musician, arranger, composer

- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: pppat] #1277786
09/30/09 06:54 AM
09/30/09 06:54 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 306
Manchester, England, UK.
jpscoey Offline
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jpscoey  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 306
Manchester, England, UK.
'
Good point & well made Patrick thumb.


John Schofield. NTC Dip. , C.G.L.I.
Professional piano tuner/technician since 1982.
myspace
Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: pppat] #1277790
09/30/09 07:00 AM
09/30/09 07:00 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Jerry Groot RPT  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
I actually, only mute behind the treble dampers and only when there is not enough clearance for the hammers to miss the muting felt. I never pull the action forward to mute anything. I don't like taking any chances to interefering with the dampers any more than is necessary. Damper felts are finicky to say the least sometimes.

Some dampers pull back further than others do allowing for more clearance to get the muting strip behind it. Others do not. In that case, I make the U - into a smaller u - from string to string pulling back two or 3 dampers in the treble at once gently sliding the muting felt behind these dampers.

In the tenor section, I shove the mute strip as far UP as possible towards the Vbar. In most cases, this allows enough room for the hammers to just pass underneath the strip.

Personally, to each their own but, I prefer to not touch or interfere with the damper felts as much as possible especially on older pianos. That's my preference and is quicker than pulling an action back. If you're looking for speed you just eliminated one more process.



Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: Jerry Groot RPT] #1277808
09/30/09 07:59 AM
09/30/09 07:59 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 306
Manchester, England, UK.
jpscoey Offline
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jpscoey  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 306
Manchester, England, UK.
'
I feel that I'm repeating myself now - but I can only go from

my (seems like donkys years) of experience!

The way that I've described works very well for me, and if it helps

other tuners/techs out there then so be it smile


If you've got a different point of view - that's fair enough!


I'm only trying to do my best.
.


John Schofield. NTC Dip. , C.G.L.I.
Professional piano tuner/technician since 1982.
myspace
Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: jpscoey] #1278304
09/30/09 10:38 PM
09/30/09 10:38 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Jerry Groot RPT  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
That's what it's all about. Do our best! smile


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: Jerry Groot RPT] #1278373
10/01/09 02:05 AM
10/01/09 02:05 AM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 119
Lansing, MI
B
b3groover Offline
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b3groover  Offline
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B

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 119
Lansing, MI
I remember when my dad first showed me how to strip mute a piano. He started in the treble section and carefully pulled the dampers away, three or four at a time, to gently push the loops of temperament felt behind them. He made the loops with a small flat head screwdriver. He did it so fast.

Then he pulled them all out and said "Go ahead". It seemed like it took me 20 minutes just to do the treble section. I said, "How can you do that so fast?" He said, "Patience. It will come."

It takes me about 75 minutes to tune a piano these days. For a pitch raise, about twice that. The fastest I've ever tuned is 40 minutes on a nice Yamaha upright that just fell into place.

I've noticed I've been getting pretty hot during tunings lately, which I guess means I'm working efficiently! smile By the end I definitely have to wipe some sweat from my brow.

I find sometimes that after pulling the strip mute and tuning the left unison, I often use a rubber mute on that same left unison when I tune the right unison, so that only two strings are speaking at any time. Not always and mainly in the treble.

I don't tune a lot of grands but I've gotten the impression that it is sort of a faux pas to use a strip mute on them?


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jim Alfredson
Musician / Tuner
www.organissimo.org
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